> > I would doubt this as Aronius has no connection to Irrippi
> > Ontor.
>He is a Lunar noble cult, a cult for Carmanoi and Hazars.
I dislike the concept of a cult spanning castes. Take a look at the Players Book Genertela p26. War cults are confined to the knights caste, farmer cults are confined to the serf caste and so forth.
>His power rests in part from the use of Imperial influence. His
>cult and households will have the best contracts, the best homes
>in Glamour and the easiest links with other Lunar cults.
I don't think this is so. We've already been told that the Lunarization of the Carmanians is superficial and so the Imperial Influence should be reserved for those houses that are thoroughly lunarized (ie those who worship the Goddess instead of Idovanus).
Aronius to my mind accepted some lunar secrets into the Carmanian Lore so as to preserve the rest of it from being drowned in the Lunar Tide. If he was the Lunar Apostle to the Carmanians as Hwarin Dalthippa was to the Sylilans, then Carmania would be part of the Heartlands IMO.
>Like any Lunar cult [Aronius] has a connection with IO.
That does not mean that every Aronius House has to have an IO sage serving them as a vizier for religious reasons. IMO Irrippi Ontor has a bad aroma in Carmania - he's an apostate, a traitor and he used _glamours_ at the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light. His cult made zero progress in converting or reconciling Carmania to the Lunar Way. Worst of all, he's the patron of the Lunar University which feuds with the Halls of Viziers. In Oxbridge Terms, he symbolizes the "Other Place".
>Without a decent IO sage in a Carmanois household he would
>be bereft of experts on Imperial policy and fashion.
As Nick states, these would be Heartlanders or thoroughly Lunarized Carmanians.
> >IMO their viziers are sorcerers just like everybody else's
> >(except they go for Makaebus etc.) as that is the Carmanian Way.
>IO is accepted by
>the Magi as a god of the Truth and is therefore fine to worship.
I very much doubt this. Just because the Goddess is accepted by the Viziers does not entail that all her manifestations are. Gerra is recognized as an incarnation of the Goddess yet prior to her coming, she was openly worshipped in the Spolite Empire, qualifying her for the Magis' Black Book of Naughty Cults.
That IO is not approved by the Magi means little in effect for the IO Vizier can claim that he's not corrupted because of his superior moral fibre, just like most sorcerous viziers are or for that matter priests of Ikadz or Atyar. But because of IO's misdeeds (retold by the Viziers), his worshippers have a bad reputation in Carmania.
That's how I sees it anyway.
> > The Aronius households (by which I assume you mean Lunarized
> > Carmanians) are IMO the type that "ignores the Lunar message
> > of oneness, preferring to seek Idovanus through the tried and
> > true methods of light and darkness" p121.
>I would consider this to be the older houses,
I disagree. Older Houses would be the ones who worship Humakt instead of Yanafal Tarnils and resist all manners of loony innovations.
>Yes, some do, I would agree, but not all. The Carmanians were the
>last strong bulwark of Lunarism during Sheng,
They may have been militarily strong but their Lunarism was not much better than the Seven Mother's Cultist.
>When the Magi, who are an uber caste, over the Viziers, state that
>a God is of the Truth of Idovanus, they are actively bringing in
>that God to the fold.
The Magi are responsible for _all_ religious affairs, _not_ the Viziers.
>The process is one of control. The priests of that cult become Viziers
>because that is how they are controlled and policed.
Wrong. "The Magi have a supervisory role over the viziers and priests in Carmania" Glorantha Intro p120.
I cannot see the point of further argument about whether Priests are Viziers or not any further because a) it is written down in the Glorantha Intro that they are not, b) this is not the forum for overturning published material and c) you have had over six months before publication to effect the changes.
>I don't see the Viziers as being unable to use their weapons anymore.
What then is the point of having Castes then? As stated on p115 of the Glorantha Intro "As is the Western Custom, they impose a strict caste law".
>The concept of the Carmanians creating a caste that cannot pick
>up a blade seems wrong to me.
They would not use a Hazar Weapon in any case. Nasty little daggers and staffs do just fine.
>Nor do I think they would have to wear constume, except on ritual
>occaisons.
Well they are certainly not going to wear Hazar clothes in any case.
>I look at it like a medieval knight of one of the more frivolous
>orders - they have ritual costume that is very unwarlike indeed,
>but in battle, its on with the combat leather and heavy plate.
I do not believe in Viziers wearing combat leather and heavy plate. As sorcerers, they should be relying on magical protection.
>To me the Viziers are a professional caste with extremely strong
>religious observances. When you become a Viziers, you become
>the arm of Idovanus, the enforcers of his word, the hunters of
>the Lie.
All Carmanians are opponents of the Lie. The Viziers are the old Wizard Caste and keepers of Carmanian Lore. They have no special attachment to Idovanus or his word - only the Magi have that.
> > Now Magi as members of the Vizier Caste
>The Magi are above the Vizier caste, they are something else
>altogether. P120 Intro to G, "They are not senior Viziers, but
>a seperate order of wizards, renowned for their magical puissance."
Senior was meant in the sense of the Magi not being the most experienced Viziers. As an order of Wizards, they are still in the Vizier Caste, even if most people do not think of them as Viziers.
>Thus there are Bisos worshippers who are of the Truth and there are
>evil, deranged scum who follow the Lie by worshipping the cult
>_without_ sanction from the Viziers.
Martin, they don't need sanction from the Viziers as it's not the Vizier's job to oversee the religious affairs of other cults. It is the responsibility of the Magi as stated in the Glorantha Intro.
>They've had a long time to mutate since their Malkioni
>days, in a region packed with powerful theistic traditions.
And they hold on much harder to their old traditions that haven't been mutated, such as their Caste Law.
>I would think that [priests of Atyar, Ikdaz or Valind] would just
>be Viziers like any other, the same as the accepted cults.
I would like to see how a Priest of Ikadz, Atyar or Valind is going to cope with the general duties of a House Vizier, such as interpret the White and Black Laws. They are not the same even though they enjoy the same legal status.
>It makes you wonder what the Carmanians think of the rest of the Empire
>though. It would be tough on them and everyone else if they went outside
>of Carmania and met those worshipping deities that had no sanctioned
>Viziers. I think they must have some mechanism for dealing with that.
They treat them as most people would treat those who do not think it wrong to marry their cousins.
>If IO priests are Viziers, why not _any_ priest?
Because the worshippers of IO are also Viziers which is not true of worshippers of Humakt, for example.
>It would save the ambiguity if
>all members of the learned workforce were in the learned caste IMO.
A Priest of Humakt is not learned. Your ambiguity resolution would also mean that a priest of a serf god becomes a Vizier!
> > They are a Malkioni people and Malkion has created a strict
> > division between the duties of Lords and Soldiers.
>But they _aren't_ really a Malkioni people any more are they?
They are heterodox, but they still have a strict caste law.
>Besides, the Malkioni nobles fight! They are warriors as well
>as leaders!
I realize this. I even admitted it was true for the Brithini. But I still believe that there should be different rules for what a noble and a soldier can do in any Malkioni society.
>Clearly there is a distinction between Carmanoi and Hazar, I agree,
>but to say that the nobility is not able to worship a war god seems
>to defy their history to me.
The fact that war gods are not listed in the noble cults (not even Yanafal) indicates to me a prohibition of some kind. I am quite happy with a loophole that allows Karmanoi to worship some gods that might also be worshipped by Hazars, but I feel that this should not be a widely used one.
>A baron leads his army to war, the leader of the Queens
>Regiment from Spol is a good Carmanoi but certainly rides to war, for
>pleasure!
But does he worship the same gods as the troops of the Queens?
>Joranthir himself became Carmanoi after being a successful Hazar.
For all we know, he may have fought as a Karmanoi or ruled the land as a Shogun (acting on the behalf of weak Karmanoi).
>I think many Carmanoi are ex-Hazars who have earned their lands
>through war and conquest.
I disagree. The Carmanians with their strict Caste Law would not go around changing Castes after it has been selected. These guys aren't meant to be liberals - Caste is something that has been ordained by Idovanus and it should be adhered to throughout one's life.
>I do not think that the Gods approved by the Magi are caste gods,
>but simply aspects of the Idovanic Truth.
I can only urge you to the Player's Book: Genertela which link the worship of Gods to Caste.
>As there might be a Vizier who
>lives for war and battle, there might be a Hazar who venerates the Spring
>Spirit and collects flowers.
They are breakers of Caste and dupes of the Lie.
> > Their caste is chosen at puberty
>Mostly, yes, but then there are Carmanoi who lose their status
>and there are Hazars who become Viziers or Carmanoi through
>learning or exploit, or simple career change.
Once again, I do not believe that such people exist. It is at odds with the Carmanians having a strict caste law.
> > The division is that _worshippers_ of Irrippi Ontor are Viziers.
> > What other caste would they belong to?
>But according you the argument you've put forth, would they not be
>worshippers of a lesser god and thus be Hazars?
Huh? Worshippers of IO are scribes and suchlike. Therefore they belong in the Vizier Caste. Worshippers of Humakt are warriors and so they belong in the Hazar Caste. Priests of both gods belong in the _same_ _caste_ as their worshippers. Hence Priests of IO are Viziers and Priest of Humakt are Hazars. What is so difficult to understand about this?
> > I think they would use their adherence to the truth to find out
> > whether a Pelandan (as a forced servant of the lie) has been
> > fiddling the books. Saves the hassle of learning about filthy
> > lucre.
>Weeelll, much as I like the concept of the nobility being adverse
>to money in all respects, there would be no practical way they could
>avoid it.
They are not adverse to collecting it or spending it, they are just adverse to earning it through craftsmanship or haggling. Simply taking a cut from those making the money (as was done by Roman Senators and Medieval Nobles) solves their moral qualms. After all most of the means of making money are beneath the dignity of the Hazar Caste but collecting taxes, rents etc. is not.
>I think some nobles would have their Viziers do it,
Viziers can make money through scribecraft and law (i.e. earning fees from settling market disputes). I do not think that other forms of money-making are acceptable to their station.
Rather than see the Hazars as shopkeepers (as the Genertela book implies), I see them as revenue extractors from the productive serf caste. An average Hazar family would have a contract (solemnized by an oath) with the local Karmanoi to collect rents, duties, tolls etc over a certain patch of land. Most of the collectibles gets handed over to the Karmanoi and the rest is used as living expenses.
Rather than lose their warlike spirit, their ferocity is now channelled into collecting the required dues and ensuring that their serfs do not even think about stepping out of line.
--Peter Metcalfe
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