Peter:
> Wrong. "The Magi have a supervisory role over the viziers
> and priests in Carmania" Glorantha Intro p120.
> I cannot see the point of further argument about whether Priests
> are Viziers or not any further because a) it is written down in the
> Glorantha Intro that they are not,
Yep, back to the drawing board as far as their culture goes.
>b) this is not the forum for overturning published material
I suppose not.
>and c) you have had over six months before publication to effect the
>changes.
We wrote those cults in January, based on primary sources. We didn't use your chapter as a full source as it was still being hacked and slashed by Greg. At the time, we had no idea what was being ok'ed and what wasn't so we stuck to our interpretation of the info we had.
The Magi and Vizier relationship appeared to us to be one of defining the Truth and the Lie. That was the main point of the Vizier caste, to encapsulate all those with magical power within it, under the rule of the Magi. Because the caste has all the learned people in it, it seemed clear to us that its job, as representatives of the otherwise seclusive and elitist Magi (who rarely IMO leave Brinnus) was to enforce the dictates of the Magi on religious practice, that defend the Carmanians against the Lie.
This didn't seem to apply to the Pelandans, who are of a non- grouping and thus born to the Lie. I think the Carmanians accept that the Lie is strong in others, hence they are a _better_ people and should rule.
However, you have defined the Viziers are being mostly sorcerers, so we'll have to go with that. At the same time though, I'm curious as to how you see the logisitics of a tiny group like the Magi enforcing the Truth as actually working?
Firstly the Magi are not of the cults they will be observing. Therefore they will have no access to the inner rites of the cult or even knowledge of its secrets and capabilities. Hell, they won't even be able to _see_ what the cult members see in a ceremony! So how can they actually tell if the cult is following the Truth or the Lie?
Secondly they are secluded and pure. They spend much time in meditation and purification rituals so they can reach Idovanus and hear the Truth. How do they do this AND go around the country checking on all these cults? Nearly a million people in Carmania they have to watch while there might be a few hundred of them at best?
Help us out here, we're trying to explain the logic of the Truth and the Lie in practical terms. When a player joins a Carmanian cult he has to know the impact the Magi have on his cult and what they actually _do_ to check out that cult on a regular basis. To me, the Magi would seem about as effective as Columbia Customs in stopping drugs passing through. They would have no _effective_ control over any of the cults, except on a superficial level.
> >I don't see the Viziers as being unable to use their weapons
anymore.
> What then is the point of having Castes then? As stated on p115
> of the Glorantha Intro "As is the Western Custom, they impose a
> strict caste law".
The point of the castes in Carmania (Which is NOT in the West and hasn't been a Western culture for hundred of years. Might as well say that Americans are European because most of them came from there 100 years ago)is that they define their superiority over their serf peoples AND defend them from the Lie. They also superfically follow the Western tradition but there are many changes there. A caste has strict law, it does not mean that the person in the caste cannot leave the caste. And given their origins, I cannot see a Carmanian caste forbidding weapon use. Period.
> >The concept of the Carmanians creating a caste that cannot pick
> >up a blade seems wrong to me.
> They would not use a Hazar Weapon in any case. Nasty little
> daggers and staffs do just fine.
Some of them undoubtedly do. Some despise weapons no doubt. But some do not.
> >I look at it like a medieval knight of one of the more frivolous
> >orders - they have ritual costume that is very unwarlike indeed,
> >but in battle, its on with the combat leather and heavy plate.
> I do not believe in Viziers wearing combat leather and heavy
> plate. As sorcerers, they should be relying on magical
> protection.
Those Viziers who fight would use armour. Those Carmanoi who fought would. Some Viziers won't, some will. And I do think there are orders of Carmanian Viziers who fight.
> >To me the Viziers are a professional caste with extremely strong
> >religious observances. When you become a Viziers, you become
> >the arm of Idovanus, the enforcers of his word, the hunters of
> >the Lie.
> All Carmanians are opponents of the Lie. The Viziers are the
> old Wizard Caste and keepers of Carmanian Lore. They have no
> special attachment to Idovanus or his word - only the Magi
> have that.
Okay.
> > > Now Magi as members of the Vizier Caste
> >The Magi are above the Vizier caste, they are something else
> >altogether. P120 Intro to G, "They are not senior Viziers, but
> >a seperate order of wizards, renowned for their magical puissance."
> Senior was meant in the sense of the Magi not being the most
> experienced Viziers. As an order of Wizards, they are still
> in the Vizier Caste, even if most people do not think of them
> as Viziers.
Okay.
> >It would save the ambiguity if
> >all members of the learned workforce were in the learned caste IMO.
> A Priest of Humakt is not learned. Your ambiguity resolution
> would also mean that a priest of a serf god becomes a Vizier!
Not at all, because there are no Carmanian serfs. Anyway, moot point.
> > > They are a Malkioni people and Malkion has created a strict
> > > division between the duties of Lords and Soldiers.
> >But they _aren't_ really a Malkioni people any more are they?
> They are heterodox, but they still have a strict caste law.
Which we don't have published sources on. I suppose we better get writing on that.
> >Besides, the Malkioni nobles fight! They are warriors as well
> >as leaders!
> I realize this. I even admitted it was true for the Brithini.
> But I still believe that there should be different rules for
> what a noble and a soldier can do in any Malkioni society.
But we don't know what they are and there is disagreement on even the little we do know.
> >Clearly there is a distinction between Carmanoi and Hazar, I agree,
> >but to say that the nobility is not able to worship a war god seems
> >to defy their history to me.
> The fact that war gods are not listed in the noble cults
> (not even Yanafal) indicates to me a prohibition of some
> kind.
Well, that section was written when we knew very little about Carmania. I have no problem tweaking that. After all, there was no mention of Carmanos or Aronious in their either, if my memory serves me. Or Idovanus?
> I am quite happy with a loophole that allows
> Karmanoi to worship some gods that might also be worshipped
> by Hazars, but I feel that this should not be a widely
> used one.
Fair enough.
> >A baron leads his army to war, the leader of the Queens
> >Regiment from Spol is a good Carmanoi but certainly rides to war,
for
> >pleasure!
> But does he worship the same gods as the troops of the Queens?
I think he is a Spolite Knight-Killer of Humakt.
> >Joranthir himself became Carmanoi after being a successful Hazar.
> For all we know, he may have fought as a Karmanoi or ruled the
> land as a Shogun (acting on the behalf of weak Karmanoi).
We wrote up his history based on his career, which seems to start as a lowly officer.
> >I think many Carmanoi are ex-Hazars who have earned their lands
> >through war and conquest.
> I disagree. The Carmanians with their strict Caste Law would
> not go around changing Castes after it has been selected.
I don't agree. I don't think its common, but I think it can happen. We don't want Rokari on the Poralistor. These guys are much more like the Henotheists.
>These guys aren't meant to be liberals - Caste is something that has
> been ordained by Idovanus and it should be adhered to throughout
> one's life.
I think that the Carmanians see rising in caste as getting closer to the Light of Idovanus and this is a "good thing". Its certainly a good thing for players who are Carmanian as they get to change social station as they rise in power.
> >As there might be a Vizier who
> >lives for war and battle, there might be a Hazar who venerates the
Spring
> >Spirit and collects flowers.
> They are breakers of Caste and dupes of the Lie.
I don't think so. We have a precedent. Many Hazars have sold their weapons. The caste probably had rules that the Hazars must be ready for war and have a panoply ready at all times. Clearly these caste laws will have bend under the pressure of the times.
> > > Their caste is chosen at puberty
> >Mostly, yes, but then there are Carmanoi who lose their status
> >and there are Hazars who become Viziers or Carmanoi through
> >learning or exploit, or simple career change.
> Once again, I do not believe that such people exist. It is
> at odds with the Carmanians having a strict caste law.
I don't think the strictness of their laws extends to this level of immobility. As I said, having Rokari caste solidity in Peloria wouldn't work and is less game fun IMO.
> Viziers can make money through scribecraft and law (i.e.
> earning fees from settling market disputes). I do not
> think that other forms of money-making are acceptable
> to their station.
Agreed. Though there are many tasks they would do - astrology, philosophy, teaching etc.
> Rather than see the Hazars as shopkeepers (as the Genertela
> book implies), I see them as revenue extractors from the
> productive serf caste. An average Hazar family would have
> a contract (solemnized by an oath) with the local Karmanoi
> to collect rents, duties, tolls etc over a certain patch of
> land. Most of the collectibles gets handed over to the
> Karmanoi and the rest is used as living expenses.
Yes, this would be the case. What about merchants though? They are Hazars IMO.
Martin Laurie
Powered by hypermail