>At the same time though, I'm curious as
>to how you see the logisitics of a tiny group like the Magi enforcing
>the Truth as actually working?
Through Divinations. Greg hardly blinked at how the Rokari manage to control what is read in Seshnela (there's a Abbot, see, with a library full of Forbidden Books that he has read. He can cast a spell that lets him know where _other_ copies of any books that he has read are) and so I don't see anything wrong with the Magi doing a Gaumata's Vision (q.v.) to see where the Lie waxes and multiplies and then sending out the Fatwah to the locals to ship up or be damned.
> > What then is the point of having Castes then? As stated on p115
> > of the Glorantha Intro "As is the Western Custom, they impose a
> > strict caste law".
>The point of the castes in Carmania (Which is NOT in the West and
>hasn't been a Western culture for hundred of years.
If the Carmanians aren't a western culture then somebody had better tell Greg because he has been treating them as such and even writing descriptions of Carmanianism in general outlines about the development of Malkioni thought while dismissing Arkat and Ralios as a backwater.
>is that they define their superiority over their serf
>peoples AND defend them from the Lie.
Mere superiority is not enough. That can easily be done by just having Lords and Serfs in which the Lords can do anything and the serfs have to serve the Lords. But Carmania is known to have distinct castes of Hazar, Vizier and Karmanoi.
>A caste has strict law, it does not mean that the person in
>the caste cannot leave the caste.
But a caste by its very _meaning_ is not something that's supposed to be changeable.
>And given their origins, I cannot see a Carmanian
>caste forbidding weapon use. Period.
Their origins is the West which does have a concept of a well-known non-weapons-using Wizard's Caste.
> > I do not believe in Viziers wearing combat leather and heavy
> > plate. As sorcerers, they should be relying on magical
> > protection.
>Those Viziers who fight would use armour.
Why _should_ Viziers fight? They are the learned Caste, not fighters. If they want fighting done, they get a Hazar to do it. What is the point of having Caste Rules on what can and cannot be done, if caste members can do anything they want?
> > They are heterodox, but they still have a strict caste law.
>Which we don't have published sources on. I suppose we better get
>writing on that.
Excuse me but we do have published sources on caste. Apply yourself to understanding the Western Concept of Caste in the Glorantha Book p44-46 because that is the same as the Carmanian concept. I put a lot of work in trying to make that simple, clear and digestible.
> > But I still believe that there should be different rules for
> > what a noble and a soldier can do in any Malkioni society.
>But we don't know what they are
We know what they are for the Brithini (and for the Rokari). It shouldn't be to difficult for us to find similar definitions for the Carmanians.
>and there is disagreement on even the little we do know.
What disagreement is there?
> > The fact that war gods are not listed in the noble cults
> > (not even Yanafal) indicates to me a prohibition of some
> > kind.
>Well, that section was written when we knew very little about
>Carmania. I have no problem tweaking that.
It still is relevant today and its spirit should be adhered to. I do not consider allowing Viziers-militant or allowing Lords to worship Hazar Gods to be mere "tweaks".
>After all, there was no mention of Carmanos or Aronious in
>their either, if my memory serves me.
Both Aronius and Carmanos were well known at the time of the writing of that section.
>Or Idovanus?
His worship is implied by "Carmanian Heresy of Malkionism" which all Carmanians belong to.
> > But does he worship the same gods as the troops of the Queens?
>I think he is a Spolite Knight-Killer of Humakt.
Then you still don't understand Castes. This is a Noble, not a Soldier. He doesn't gain glory by worshipping the God of Grunts and PBI!
> > >Joranthir himself became Carmanoi after being a successful Hazar.
> > For all we know, he may have fought as a Karmanoi or ruled the
> > land as a Shogun (acting on the behalf of weak Karmanoi).
>We wrote up his history based on his career, which seems to start as
>a lowly officer.
Which is not published yet and based on a grave misunderstanding of Caste. There's still plenty of time to "tweak" it.
> > The Carmanians with their strict Caste Law would
> > not go around changing Castes after it has been selected.
>I don't agree. I don't think its common, but I think it can happen.
>We don't want Rokari on the Poralistor. These guys are much more
>like the Henotheists.
So? Even the henotheists don't change their caste. Changing Caste is a _peculiar_ notion to the Loskalmi Hrestoli and a culture with a strict caste law should not IMO have a mechanism for changing caste merely because a Hazar has managed to acquire some land and wants to retire.
>I think that the Carmanians see rising in caste as getting closer to
>the Light of Idovanus and this is a "good thing".
If they do think so then it would be noteworthy and practiced by most Carmanians, not "uncommon" as you said before. Furthermore the Magi are the Closest to Idovanus, not the Karmanoi.
>Its certainly a
>good thing for players who are Carmanian as they get to change social
>station as they rise in power.
Carmanians can increase their social status without changing Caste. I've already mentioned the possibility of Aronius being a Shogun-Hazar which is perfectly possible in the west just as it was in Japan.
> > >As there might be a Vizier who
> > >lives for war and battle, there might be a Hazar who venerates the
> > >Spring Spirit and collects flowers.
> > They are breakers of Caste and dupes of the Lie.
>I don't think so. We have a precedent. Many Hazars have sold their
>weapons.
They are still Hazars and perform duties worthy of a Hazar (like rent collection). Hazars venerating Spring and Vizier- are contrary to the nature of their caste.
>The caste probably had rules that the Hazars must be ready
>for war and have a panoply ready at all times. Clearly these caste
>laws will have bend under the pressure of the times.
So they have to have to parade once in a while to demonstrate their readiness and own a tent. I don't see why a Hazar can't do this.
>What about merchants though? They are Hazars IMO.
Merchants are Karmanoi as per Player's Book: Genertela (from the ancient Talar duties probably). I've already discussed Carmanian mercantilism in which the Trade is conducted by the Houses rather than individual merchants.
--Peter Metcalfe
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