> Alexandre Lanciani
>
> > > I think that individuals only have one spirit (ok there may be some
> > > exceptions) so I am not sure about the idea of a spirit per ability.
>
> > But if fits with the fact that spirits in HW seem to possess >only one
> >ability (I may be grossly mistaken though).
>
> They don't. However when you integrate a spirit or place it
> in a fetish, you can only use one spirit.
Er, isn't that one ability? The Shaman gets to choose one ability out of something which typifies the spirit's nature. Squirrel spirits being an example used in the past.
> > Agreed. But IMO there are better ways to track these stations >than cult
> >hierarchies. Holy Fighter could well be an advanced >occupation (requiring
> >knowledge of the Tradition Secret to enter).
>
> But a holy fighter _is_ part of the Cult of Bagog and holy people
> are part of the animist hierarchy.
Holy people would be a good way to track it. Tough/cunning/smart enough to be noticed but not ready (or able) to take the step to Queen or Shaman yet. At the risk of a Runequestism, I'd say Holy People fill the Acolyte socio-magicnomic niche very nicely.
> > But isn't Bagog a great chaos spirit? Then why shouldn't they >have it?
>
> Because they have to get their spirits from Primal Chaos and
> not Bagog.
They're chaotic but to get *more* chaos one usually has to rely on something from Primal Chaos and draw something In from Outside. Bagog wouldn't provide it but she'd be in a better positiont to grant access to that tradition, perhaps. Certainly easier that a kolating would.
> > > Bagogi shamans should not have access to these types of spirits
> > > unless they are also Queens. You might be better of viewing
> > > the Bagogi Shamans as dealing with spirits _outside_ the Bagog
> > > tradition (like the Ituvanu shamans of the Dorastran Telmori)
> > > for the benefit of the people.
Hmmm. Not really. I would be thinking that the Bagogi shaman might have access to anything inside teh tradition EXCEPT the specialist spirits. This would be similar to the Yu-kurgant (sp!) tradition in the Grazelander notes.
> >But who would deal with traditional spirits, then?
>
> The Queen and also the Holy Fighters.
Andthe shamen.
> >IIRC telmori have two types of shamans.
>
> That's correct. I suggested that the Bagogi Shamans would
> be closer to the Ituvanu rather than the ordinary Telmori
> Shamans.
I think that the bagogi wouldn't see much distinction between the two -- some spirits are easier to use and compel and others are not. Some are eaten and some are friends.
> > Maybe changing the requirements? Something like: one mastery at three
> >talents from integrated spirits, a hunting ability and a >combat ability.
>
> I don't think so. Shamans cannot shapechange unless they become
> Queens. Merely changing the requirement for the Shapechanging Secret
> of Bagog is not enough.
Why would bagog get a shapechange secret? I think that Ritual of Rebirth might make a better secret for a Queen. They are not, afterall, hsunchen.
> > But what level of victory is required? Normally integration >requires a
> >complete victory, so would this ritual be useless unless >the participants
> >get a complete victory?
>
> Well unless animists get a complete victory for integrating a
> spirit, they get nothing also.
>
> --Peter Metcalfe
Yes. And remember, its can be done as a ritual. With all that entails -- funky items. Screaming estatic scorpion men chanting as their beloved Queen devours another Outsider to become one of the People. Holy Ground, weakened and wounded victim. (and, of course, an extended contest)
Oh, its easily done...
Jeff
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