Roderick and Ellen Robertson wrote:
>
> > > How plausible is it that an Orlanthi clan could be persuaded to
> > raid on a
> > > major holy day (even if it one for a deity not seriously worshipped
> > by that
> > > clan)?
> >
> > The clan? Unlikely. Some idiots FROM the clan, yes, why not? Not all
> > Orlanthi are GOOD Orlanthi...
>
> How likely is it to have a punch-up on a sunday in the real world, among
> supposedly "Christian" peoples? Since it's Vinga's day, the raiders
> probably won't have any red-haired women with them, but for the rest, heck
> why not?
Besides, initiation rituals inevitably draw opposition to them. And sometimes, its nastier than others -- and in this case, its an 'enemy' which most folks would not anticipate arriving.
"Svend? What are you doing here? "I'm breaking up this ritual. Its wrong. "No its not. "Yes it is.
> > > Would the family hiring a band of Gagarthi be a more plausible work-
> > around?
> >
> > Extreme, I'd say. But still possible.
>
> But not a personal as doing it in person :-). Of course, having hired
> Gagarthi once, they've proved (to the Gagarthi) that they are "willing" to
> work with the outlaws, which could be an interesting turn of events for the
> family! They might find themelves "in debt" to the outlaws, having to hide
> renegades, give them tribute, etc. Imagine having the local bike gang decide
> that they can count on you when they're in trouble?
Oh indeed! And, of course, Trouble People happen. What if one of the Gagarthi was one of the memebers of your clan? He might want to help, out of the 'goodness of his heart'
As to biker gangs doing that -- it happens in some remote communities more often than the police would like to admit. Some experiences I had in backwoods Quebec and Ontario (Canada) were *very* eye-opening and disturbing.
> > It'd involve some Narrator fudging, I'd think. Normally, I'd say the
> > initiate wouldn't be in the Otherworld on her own (others would be
> > playing the other parts in the ritual), but it's Narrator's call.
>
> Not at all. *All* initiations have parts which take place on the Other Side.
> That's where the Orlanthi kids were ambushed by Lokmayadan.
Yes, Initiation involves going into the Other Side to make contact with the deity and entities which will be testing you. Its an 'initiation into the mysteries' afterall, not a dry run...
> > Something substantial enough to break down the connection to the
> > Otherworld. For a Shamanic Circle, all you have to do is break the
> > circle (I know... I'm still on the Otherside...), but for theists the
> > connection is a bit more resilient. However, a well-aimed brick to
> > the Vingan Ritual leader's head should do...
>
> Check NB 21 for the physical effects of destroying a temple whole people are
> on the other side - they are unharmed at least until they come back. So the
> raiders will catch the initiation ceremony between the God-talker leaving
> the girl on the Other Side, and the girl coming back a full-fledged Vingan
> (or, alternately, the God-talker is trapped on the Otther Side as well).
Or the ceremony could be disrupted on the Other Side by the raiders who are a nasty encounter.
> Coming back from the Theistic otherside usually involves walking through a
> door back to "the present", which deposits you back where you started the
> ritual. There is usually no way to "come back" to a different spot (there
> are some really hard ways to do it, but not suitable for a just-minted
> initiate!
Yes, this is true. And getting lost is usually a death-sentence even if you're experienced and powerful.
> > Outlawry would be possible, but extreme. A damn good kicking (the
> > Vingans may well volunteer for this) and a hefty fine (plus
> > substantial loss of various abilities, like relations to clan, to
Weregeld would be an interesting argument at this point: Is she a child or an adult? Is she considered a weaponthane? Lots of interesting would-have/could-have arguments for Lawtalkers to argue and pick about.
> > Orlanth, etc) would be more in keeping. Of course, if the girl dies,
> > it may well be considered murder. The clan the attackers came from
> > might well outlaw them just to save face, too.
That is a reasonable solution, or, perhaps if those Gagarthi were discovered to have been hired -- or, better yet *claim* to have been hired by the clan's worst enemies. Which liar are you going to believe? The Outlaw Gagarthi who is in it for the money or those perfidious Black Oaks. (You know that this is just the sort of villanous thing you always thought they did -- in secret)
> It's not *really* impious, I can see certain sorts of people saying "well
> heck, that was the best time to do it". The Raiding Clan will certainly be
And, of course, its a test of both the Clan and the goddess's worshippers.
> in Vinga's bad books, but most people will expect the raided clan/the
> vingans to take care of the problem in their own way - as wulf says, a damn
> good kicking.
Ass-kicking for Goodness! Hampsters and Vingans everywhere rejoyce!
> Who does the clan belong to? To the tribe of the raidees, or another? If the
> same tribe, then they'll need to take it up in court, with both sides
> calling characetr witnesses, etc. If another tribe, then they'll have to get
> the tribal kings involved if they want a court case.
This is a good point. If its in-tribe, that's a very bad sign and could lead to either an intertribal feud (VERY bad) or possibly the Tribe breaking up or clans breaking away (even worse). If nothing else, it gives the lawspeakers and negotiator types something to do.
> Simple impiety isn't a crime (impiety is up to the gods to punish - Agents
> of Reprisal exist for that very reason, and subtle calls on the goddess's
> earthly followers to avenge their sister...), instead the raided clan will
True. But one can always help the gods out -- I am sure that slaying such disgusting people would find favor in Vinga's eyes. But there is a difference between Law and Justice which is very fine in Orlanthi society.
> have to sue for real damages - injured or killed people, destroyed
> buildings, etc. The raiding clan may chose to outlaw the raiders to prevent
> a major court case (in effect saying "here, we wash our hands of 'em"), or
At which point they might become Gagarthi (which has happened in our game -- we'll get that sheep-stealing Thorngast yet.
> (if this is all the same tribe) the tribe may call for outlawry or
> banishment, but it is only for the damage done, not for attacking on a God's
> day.
>
> Roderick
Yes. A rather Gloranthan 'render unto Ceasar' as it were.
Jeff "I play too much Baldur's Gate II" Kyer
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