> From: "DreadDomain" <dreaddomain_at_...>
>Subject: Re: Uz society
>
>> Just to quibble... My sense is, when we talk
>about a troll society
>> "dominated" by Zorak Zoran, we're stretching a
>point somewhat. I don't
>think
>> any troll society could be "dominated" by ZZ the
>way Dagor Inkarth is by
>> Kyger Litor, without turning into something
>completely unstable--say,
>> something like the Kingdom of War.
>
>But wasn't it the case for Ralios's Dark Empire?
No. Ralios' Dark Empirewas of ocurse dominated by Arkat. By the time he got there he had actually renounced his trollishness, much as he had renounced most everything else in his miserable life. What did he become? Well, most of the actual facts concerning that were wiped out by the Silver Empire when they plundered the Dark Empire. Hence the many Arkats now known, sought after or imagined. However, whatever he did become, he still retained the friendship of the trolls, many of whom he resettled in Guhan.
>> It might make sense to say a society is
>"dominated by ZZ", if ZZ is the
>> chief wargod (taking the place of Karrg et al.).
This really depends on what we mean by dominated. But in my book I had intended to make it clear that ZZ often replaces Kaarg as the war god, but that the essential society is not changed. To me, this is kind of like changing your leaden uz war club for one with brass spikes.
>In a society like that, I
>> think we'd see the effects you describe. But
>Kyger Litor would still be
>the
>> chief god--without her, they can't remain Uz at
>all.
This is a key point. To be a troll is to be a part of KL. Remove her and you removve the trollishness. Look at those scrawny, miserable troll remnant things that live in Pamaltela and you can see what removing KL means.
>I don't think KL was seen as the chief gog during
>the KoN.
AGain, what is dominant meaning here? If we are talkign about those losers, the males, who are seen by the rest of the world then it appears to have changed. But deep down, where it really counts, we know they all had dearMom KL in their hearts.
>Sure, even in a
>ZZ dominated society KL would be important (for
>reproduction) but Zorak
>Zorani structure would no doubt politically and
>socially place their god in
>the top spot. The power of the Council of Mothers
>would be greatly
>diminished (if not inexistent).
I think that anyh society that had ZZ dominant would have all males. Oh, maybe some female trollkin.
>> Perhaps in such societies, Zorak Zoran functions
>as a member of the Circle
>> of Eight. In that case, worshipping Zorak Zoran
>would, in essence, be
>> worshipping an aspect of Kyger Litor.
ZZ isn't a descendant of KL. He isn't an aspect of her.
>And that
>would mean their
>> understanding of KL would be somewhat different
>than the understanding in
>> Dagori Inkari.
With all due respect, YGWV. But in mine, you don{t understand KL. You ARE her. Ridding your troll self of her would be ridding yourself of self.
>I cannot see ZZ as a member of the circle of eight
>nor do I see worshipping
>ZZ (in that condition) the same as worshipping an
>aspect of KL. AFAIK, ZZ
>and KL are not even related. Probably the same
>could be said for AA and KL..
Agreed.
>> I think the same goes for Argan Argar, but less
>so. If Kyger Litor isn't
>the
>> center of Uz life, they'll have a hard time
>having children.
>
>I don't think KL "needs" to be a central aspect of
>Uz life as more as it is
>a societal fact in Uz lands, Like I sais in
>another post, faction in power
>tend to cling to power, espacially in an
>isolationist society like KL's
>society. Sure KL is important and will always be
>but her really important
>aspect is Korasting. Other aspects can be replaced
>by other deities
I think I've commented on this enough above. She doesn't "need" to be in charge, unless you want to have gonads that work, be a troll, and not be the eternal enemy of every family-loving, myth-participating troll in existence.
>>But in the
>> Kingdom of Night, Argan Argar was (I assume)
>raised to a level of prominence
>> not seen in other lands, so it would seem like
>Kyger Litor was
>de-emphasized
>> and AA was emphasized.
I don{t even agree with that. AA becomes prominent on the outside especially when there is a great need to communicate with non-trolls.
>This is what I am talking about I guess. How was
>AA emphasized? How was KL
>de-emphasized? What were the effects on Uz
>society?
None, really.
YGWV Greg Stafford
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