I'll get to your wonderful Digest post on Karse later.
On 22 Sep 2004 at 14:41, Joerg Baumgartner wrote:
> I'm using it more as a historic backdrop - my character experiences in
> Karse date from 1600ish using some of the NPCs. I'm currently trying to
> write something a couple of years later than the old Midkemia setting
> (for periods both before and after the Lunar conquest).
Well, I need to pretty much do both just before and just after the conquest to get this campaign right. (Two players have ties to the city that bridge the event.)
> I have the Pelaskites as necessary ritual component in the city make-up,
> having their own quarter where they are blatantly present, and mostly
> disappearing among the Heortlings and cosmopolitans elsewhere.
I like that. I don't want to abandon the Pelaskite thing entirely. Ritual compenent tied to Karse itself (the city god/goddess?) and thus having an indespensible role despite their diminished cultural or political power is nice.
> Apart from the open question how the Andrinic reforms could have managed
> not to change the Heortling social system from the core,
Yeah, there is that.
the Heortlanders
> had been the only Heortlings following a version of Heort's laws since the
> Dragonkill (just possibly excepting a few less matriarchal Esrolian border
> tribes). In Saird, Pelorian Heortlings had mostly adopted Alakoring rites
> and laws. So, apart from the people who emigrated to Sartar and the
> Grazelands, these people defined Heortling traditions.
Fair enough. I suppose at some point I'm going to have to go digging for a hard core comparison of Alakoring vs Heortling traditions. (Not necessary for now, that's more just a curiousity thing, it won't affect my game.)
> Whatever the result of Andrin's reforms on the clan wyters was, these
> people remained theists mostly. They accepted over time feudal elements
> from Malkioni influences. (Early feudalism and organized barbarian tribes
> are more or less the same...)
> Hardly into central Volsaxar, although around Smithstone some of this
> development might be found. Not far up the foothills of the Storm
> Mountains, where geographical isolation helps keeping outside influences
> dampened. More strongly around cities, I suppose, and quite likely
> strongly where coastal Pelaskites and Heortlings coexist.
Right, that makes some sense. So the cities and population centers have been the most changed, with the hinterlands remaining the least affected. That certainly seems logical enough.
> >> I suspect that there are some strong similarities between the
> >> organization of the cities of Sartar and of Heortland.
>
> The main difference would be the presence of several small tribes on the
> city ring in Sartar, where in Heortland one can expect strong clan leaders
> to take these positions.
So are the Heortland tribes larger? Made of fewer large clans?
> They do consider themselves part of Heortland, only a different part. This
> is similar to Yelmalian Far Walkers and other Far Walkers - thoroughly
> apart by choice of religion, yet from the very same background, and part
> of the same regional entity.
Right. I see that. It certainly comes through in the HQ Voices thing. I like the sense here of one people with changing religions. Interestingly, I think the Aeolian/Orlanthi conflict is a more benign one than the Yelmalio/Orlanth one, and so less destructive to the clans.
> Mainly. I'd still hesitate to call them a western culture, despite common
> terminology.
Maintain the "hybrid" idea. Enough for someone like Rikard to seem both familiar and exotic. Enough for a religious reformer to see them as dangerously heretical but possibly reformable.
> According to "Introduction to the Hero Wars", the King of Heortland was
> chosen from among the Larnsti Brotherhood. The idealistic view would be
> that the Larnsti chose the most able among their numbers, the dynastic
> cynic would expect the ruling king to ensure that his heir(s) became a
> member of the Larnsti and be chosen.
Oh, I am a firm believer in leaving such things sufficiently grey as to be fun.
> IMG the royal seat was in Durengard. It lies nicely on the "ley lines"
> from the City of Wonders, quite central in Heortland, close to the sacred
> mountain of the region, etc.
Someone has mentioned the idea of the Larnsti not holding a fixed court, which I think I like. But Durengard would certainly work as an official royal seat, where coronations are performed, etc. etc.
> IMO a well-meaning propaganda stunt with only a few real believers. I'd
> leave it to your campaign to decide whether Rikard believed or merely
> acted to look like a bringer of New Malkonwal.
I haven't decided. I only will if the players want to explore it. Both work for me. I'm quite certain that in my campaign, elements of the Rokari church (centered in Nochet) were quite serious about the project. Whether they convinced Rikard, or he just went along to keep their support will entirely depend on my players deciding to explore that. (Since one of them is from the region and with family ties to pre-Rikard nobility, it may happen if he wants to explore that side of his story.)
> I regard Bandal as puppet king over Karhend, Gardufar and Esvular. His
> actual influence may be slightly better than Temertain's. I wonder what
> kingship rites Bandal performs for Heortland. IMG one of Rikard's failings
> was to discontinue several of the Heortling kingship rites, thereby
> weakening (further) what held the kingdom together. Given more time, his
> Malkioni rites might have replaced these, but in only three years it would
> have taken extraordinary heroquesters (on par with Hon-eel or Sartar) to
> establish new ways that solidly.
Works for me. The place rent in 4 (at least) after the fall of Pharoah and the rise of Rikard. Esvular was always in danger of spinning off. I don't know what happens post Bandal, but I could see Esvular splitting off, Karhend and Gardufar staying as one kingdom and the north joining the new Sartar. But I don't know the canon and it doesn't really matter.
Bandal's certainly a puppet, but I get the impression he's a little more connected than Temertain. Just because I think it's more interesting. Is anything known about Bandal? Where he's from? I somehow thought of him as a Knight, but I don't suppose that makes much sense.
> Up to 1621, the situation in conquered Heortland looks very much like
> Fazzur Wideread succeeding in carving out a kingdom for himself in
> alliance with Tarsh. The Provincial politics soar high and appear to reach
> the high goals Moirades and his Orindori allies have struggled for these
> last 40 years. Tarsh is about to swallow the Far Point and hopefully the
> Exiles as well, and then take it on with Sylila over control over the rest
> of the Provinces, regaining the amount of control wielded by Phargentes. I
> don't know whether Moirades aims to become a Satrap, or rather a separate
> status like the Western Reaches, but that's what the Tarshite involvement
> is about IMO. Fazzur was instrumental in securing the Tarshite influence
> in Sartar, and the Estal Donge plot to get Temertain into the Tarshite
> dynasty seems about to take fruition, too.
So Tarsh would extend to far point, and Herotland/Sartar would become Fazzur's. Then the two ally to form a powerbase within the Empire. Cute.
> At the same time, Lunar Heartland influences have risen since Tatius took
> over the siege of Whitewall. The Lunar command is riddled by factionalism
> and favouritism. It's Tarshite "convert and include our southern brothers"
> versus Dara Happan "wipe out the rebels". Even before Tatius starts his
> temple project near Old Wind, Fazzur scouts Nochet for a Lunar temple
> there (which would have covered much of his prospective kingdom if he had
> managed to project a glowline from there, leaving out unimportant places
> like eastern Sartar or Prax). There might even have come a Lunar pharaoh
> (or similar), in best Hon-eel tradition.
Oh I'm quite certain that somewhere in the expansion plots, a Lunar Pharaoh was considered. They may have dropped the idea, but someone had it at some point. In fact, if you look at Masters of Luck and Death and the Ronos Allwind school, you can even see their philosophy (Which is tied to Pharaoh) providing an option to link to the Moon.
> The Heortlanders themselves have little time for politics on this scale,
> they have to struggle to keep their own small units together and intact.
> Former Rokari lords and native cronies of Rikard, dissident Heortling
> nobles returning from the hills where they had hidden from Rikard, and
> opportunists seeing the Lunar occupation forces as their allies on their
> way to greatness all squabble for importance in the new Lunar scheme.
> Bandal Tigerbane is the Heortland guy whose name we have, and in Volsaxar
> we have Baron Sanuel. I would be surprised if these two were the only
> people on Fazzur's payroll. The Dara Happans might have protected Rokari
> interests.
I'm certain they've got more on the payroll. And the Lunars are more than willing to ally without conversion while the situation is unstable. The people will see the truth of the Goddess eventually.
> > And so if I understand, clans are as clans are, a group of clans can be
> > part of a tribe, and a tribe would have a king. In a strange Heortland
> > thing, an earl oversees the tribes of a region (each earl was based in
> > a city, I presume?) using the sheriffs. The High King
> > rules the earls.
>
> That's one of the unanswered questions about Andrinic Heortland.
Great. :(
> I agree - I'm taking the Midkemia Carse as a snapshot of the city's past.
> There is a German language adaptation of this supplement which has a
> strong portion of "mixed" descent population, and I think that's the
> logical way for things to evolve. The factions still are there, a good
> portion of the Pelaskites has managed to keep apart, and with the Opening
> of the Oceans has returned as a powerful faction - but these struggles lie
> 40 to 20 years in the past.
Not having it, I'm not bound by it. But I do like the underlying truth there. I think the sense of them having a ritual significance (and due to the water link, a greater importance since the Opening) works fine.
> In good keeping with its Imperial Age traditions (as per King of Sartar,
> the travelogue of Hrestol Arganitis).
One thing I keep hearing is that it is famous for its brothels?
LC
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