Thanks again for your comments. I'm going to answer a number of your points below off the top of my head. None of this is meant to stifle discussion, so please take no offense. Remember, my goal is to suggest the world of Greek myth, and not the post-Homeric period. David Weihe wrote:
> > From: Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1_at_yONcXS23U6Oa3pSBtoES-OI0QYV4DCeG1IEOws1AjVXHHXJoZN7aWcmN18MRATudsX8lq93d-qVH7AJRgEU.yahoo.invalid>
> > Sam, thanks for the comments. I'm just not sure that Sorcery and
> > Animism really feel much like Ancient Greek religion to me, nor
> > does Theism as it is in HQ. The heroes of Greek myth typically
> > got their powers either through the blood of the gods in their
> > veins, or as a gift from a favorite god; there may have been a
> > few exceptions but I don't recall any right off hand. Joining a
> > cult to get affinities and feats doesn't really model this, at
> > least to me.
>
> Odysseus did magic "on his own", after talking to a lower level diety,
> Calypso, for advice. He used that advice to summon Tyresias (sp?), a
> Theban prophet from a generation or so ago, for more advice. I believe
> that Aeneas did similar necromancy, though I cannot remember the
> incident as well.
Well, sort of; he had to journey into the underworld via a cave and sacrifice a lamb, the blood of which the shades of the dead came forth to drink. IHe was told "Go here, do this, this, and this"; it really doesn't seem to have many of the trappings of a spell at all. (Now Calypso is a different story; if she isn't a witch, she's a landscape deity in her own right.) I'm not sure I'd call what Odysseus or Aeneas did "necromancy", personally.
>
> Several people in the Illiad are refered to in a fashion that implies
> that they were devotees, usually to Ares (Menelaus, most notably).
Certainly they worshipped the god, but IIRC I don't really recall much evidence that they derived heroic feats and affinities from that association, at least not in the Gloranthan sense. The Gloranthan magic system is a product of Gloranthan reality; I'm trying to come up with something that reflects Greek myths as I understand them.
> OTOH, it looks like few could use Affinities or Feats for direct,
> D&D-style, magic like killing at a distance without using a bow or
> spear to hold the effect. OT3rd hand, we know almost nothing of the
> rites of Hecate, but she was supposedly often propitiated to get minor
> spells (at the level of Huck Finn's magic to perhaps as high as the
> Death Curse supposedly put on Germanicus Caesar) which might do
> action-at-a-distance (at least until Aristotle declares it impossible).
Priestesses of Hecate should definitely have spells, I agree.
> Most Homeric magic involved becoming Inspired by the appropriate diety,
> which sounds like either Hero-forming or else temporarily integrating a
> spirit or daemon (which I think have no great known difference, in
> Greek Mythology, any more than it did in Glorantha until Daka Fal [or
> equivalent pantheon diety] separated them).
It seems to differ from Heroforming in that it was the god who chose to inspire the hero, not the hero himself. In Heroforming, much like voodoo, the participant puts himself in a receptive state of mind through ritual and welcomes the deity into his body. In ancient Greece the god usually takes over the participant without his knowledge or his cooperation, often in the heat of battle (arguably a receptive state of mind, but the hero usually does not seek to become possessed by the god). The two may be related mechanically, I suppose.
> It seems to me that the Greeks were never at the magical sophistication
> of an Orlanthi clan, but might occasionally match a Pelorian
> association, where almost everybody is just a pantheon worshipper. In
> "Report On The Orlanthi" it mentions that almost all Orlanthi worship
> heroically (in the view of its Lunar/Solar writer and readers), whereas
> we know that most are "just" unconcentrated initiates; this implies
> that one should expect most cultures' magic to be much lower powered,
> even though many Yelm-worshipping Solar nobles trace their lines back
> to their gods (just like many Achaean-era heroes).
To me, spellcasting (except for evil people like Medea and Circe) doesn't figure as much into Greek mythology as it does in later Greek folklore, and very few heroes had any spellcasting abilities at all.
> > > Also, shirley sacrifice is a way to tap into the gods' magic.
> >
> > It's a way to ask for favors from the gods, yes, but the gods are
> > still doing the work. We do need to address sacrifices and divine
> > intervention at some point, though.
>
> In Theism, the Gods always do the work, as far as the worshippers
> claim. If you try to claim that YOU are doing the magic, you had
> better be planning to be worshipped, yourself, soon, or expect a
> thunderbolt, or at least a fly biting your steed while you are flying.
But such feats and affinities could not be had by simply joining a god's cult; the Greek heroes had far fewer abilities than a typical Orlanth worshipper, and he couldn't trade them in for a new set when he joined a new cult. In general, they got their abilities from being related to the gods or being favored by them, or both. If they called upon the god for assistance, the god chooses what form the assistance (if any) will come in.
>
> And don't call him Shirley.
Umm, someone else did; it wasn't me ;-)
> > > Similarly,
> > > your hero's worship skills, relationship to temple, etc, could be
> > > the prime skills to get juju from the gods. Make common magic more
> > > powerful?
> >
> > To me, "common magic" in its concentrated form is more like what
> > witches like Circe and Medea have. They can use it actively or
> > passively. It usually requires rituals and sacrifices and
> > paraphernalia.
>
> That sounds more like HQ Sorcery to me.
It might seem so, but there are a lot of differences, too. Nothing like sorcerous nodes or saints; few congregations of worshippers. Spells, definitely, though, not feats or spirits.
> Assume that almost no one knows how to avoid mixed worship, as they
> worship their household "gods" with sacrifices, even though they are
> actually spirits. Assume that almost no one initiates deeper than the
> pantheon level, and those mostly to Mystery Cults that give little
> useful magic. The few that do initiate and know how to avoid mixed or
> inappropriate worship become famous magicians, or else called "Beloved
> of Ares/Athena/Apollo/Artemis/Zeus/Unknown God". And no bards know
> enough magic to give a God-Learner-style analysis.
IMO, "mixed worship" is a Gloranthan term; in Greek mythology there is no sorcerous plane, no theistic plane, no animist plane, so "mixed worship" isn't an issue. In this setting, I think each spellcaster should be fairly unique, because that's how it is in the myths. Magic is not as accessible in the world of Greek myth s it is in Glorantha, and more of it is used by the gods than by the characters in myth.
Keep writing, folks; I'm not sure I'm getting my opinions across with any degree of clarity, it's been a long, hard week.
Guy
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