Re: Re: Blue Pill Time

From: Andrew Dawson <asmpd01_at_VRuMf6vOG7tEO-k5EohbOXbOY0wxJtWVlECt6BgHEgHvuL86HuZYoNxer_Ej8KpSsUCt>
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:53:36 +0800


If only there was a better list to discuss this ...

On 4/20/07, Jeff Richard <richaje_at_JnN3SL3cbNhCuWg8vBi7P5ZJ8aO54gHVUnSgZhsbwkmS4Goy0hLViq2zqnCmDCejXFl8Jppxjd1l.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
> The IP issues are not what the list is about, but they were the prime
> mover that made it very sensible to create a new list. And the new
> list definitely has more activity than either of the old lists.

On 15 Feb 2007, Rick Meints posted the invitation to the WoG list, but the list has been around since 12 Jul 2006 (I can no longer access posts older than 14 Feb 2007 - though the oldest accessible posts are in mid-conversation). It seems that the original purpose of the list (for the first seven months or so) was not as a list open to the public (IP issues or not). There's nothing wrong or even dodgy with a private list for group of friends being repurposed to a public central list, so why talk around that?

> This isn't software, this is creative literature. What the fuck is
> "correctness" supposed to mean? Complaining about spelling errors is
> legitimate (although Greg does use several editors for spelling and
> grammar - as do I) but complaining about "correctness" in fictional
> literature is just weird. Greg's stories (and for that matter mine or
> anyone else's) are just that - stories. And for that matter, I'm
> selling copies of the Orlmarthingsaga at Tentacles (and eventually
> through Moon Design), with all profits to go to Tentacles or for an
> elite beerdrinking slush fund. Guess what - I don't care if
> Orlmarthingsaga works with anyone's campaign! Maybe people will buy
> it, maybe people won't. I (and David Dunham and Neil Robinson and
> Greg Stafford and many others) simply enjoyed playing in the game and
> writing up the narrative.

I'm going to try to reword and/or understand Jane's complaint (with apologies to Jane if this causes her more pain). Orlmarthingsaga isn't the problem - it's a red herring. The importance of Vinga in Glorantha is also a red herring. The problem is that Greg said that Orlmarthingsaga's contents about Vinga overrule those in Storm Tribe. The implication of this is that any any fan work may trump any previous work, no matter how "official" either is stated to be. The _one_ of my current players who is interested in Glorantha enough to buy books (which surely would help Greg and all other authors in the long run) is disgusted with this attitude - not with anyone's creative writing desires.

The simple solution would have been to say: "Some/Many/A significant portion of Vingans, such as those in Orlmarthingsaga, are lesbians." What was said instead was that Storm Tribe is incorrect now. All of this on the most official Glorantha e-mail list - about as public as it gets short of rewriting Storm Tribe. Judging by the reaction onand  off-list, a "YGVW" isn't the same thing.

I'm looking forward to Orlmarthingsaga, though that version of Vinga is just a local variation IMG. I'm not throwing away a perfectly good and useful copy of Storm Tribe that most of my players have bothered to read (I'm grateful whenever they read _any_ background material).

On 4/20/07, John Hughes <john.hughes_at_dI-tjlb5hsdKDQ-BlCH0IHTQU0e1UKu00BQV6W79IQQGkbUbA5fvdT_nBfGxC3uEgfCm8S20ZhOczJLpjV5k8w.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
> If you mean the Vinga 'active woman = man, girl on girl
> action' thing, I shared Jane's shock (though not as deeply as she
> did), but I also respect both Greg and Jeff's mythic vision.
> I see problems in selling it to players if it became a general thing,
> which I'm sure it won't. ... I'd say it was further bad news for women players, but
> lets face it, we don't have any (an Orlanthi none). ... The Storms Gods
> losing a battle and blaming it on Vinga's pregnancy sounds like 'its
> all the woman's fault', a mythic trope that has a looong and not
> terribly illustrious pedigree.

And this is my problem with the new Vinga. I have always had about 50% female players in my HW/HQ games and two in particular have noticed and commented on chauvinism in Glorantha (with another two just flat-out refusing to cooperate with the chauvinist stuff - without comment). The new "in order to access _active_ Storm powers you are part of the lesbian sorority - even if _your_ character is the exception who fancies men" version doesn't help that. (Are pillow fights in nighties part of the new rituals - cuz that would just complete the stereotype.)

And a lot of this could have been solved with the compromise word "some." - which isn't the same as redefining the words "none" and "all" - another idiotic choice for another rant.

Is this the part where I'm required to say Get A Fucking Clue And Think About The Implications Of Your Actions, Especially If Any Of You Would Like To Grow Your Audience Beyond The Sad Sacks On This List?            

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