> And here is the difference between "popular Glorantha" and "mythic
> Glorantha" that got Jane so pissed off. Needing a "socially
> acceptable outlet for women warriors" is a game construct. Folk
> want to play Xena with red hair.
> Fine. The game rules allow that. But don't be surprised if the
> underlying mythology doesn't match up with the game construct.
So, what you are saying is that women warriors aren't socially acceptable unless they become lesbian?
(I wouldn't use this shortened logic as an argument on any other list... sodyouall)
Lacking another legally acceptable list for discussing this thread, I'll abuse this list with abuse-light argumentation:
There seem to be a couple of assumptions about Vingans (and other warrior cultists):
Let's put it this way: a chieftain relying on his weaponthanes to be ready to defend his people will be "not amused" if one or several of them excuse themselves because of pregnancy/breastfeeding, regardless of the cult. Logical conclusion: a warrior serving as weaponthane must not get pregnant (or lose the rank, position, and regard). A would-be warrioress who joins a warrior cult less suited to her profession (whichever that may be) to be part of the fyrd, and maybe even the volunteer warband, is in a quite different situation. She will have a harder time making a living, and being less productive in the clan will mean she is of considerably lesser standing than the weaponthane Vingan. She still can be a cattle-guard (aka herder) or a regular part of the armed trade expeditions.
So a warrioress has got herself pregnant, but intends to continue as weaponthane when the pregnancy is over and the child given away to kin. What can she do? Demand a sabbatical, and cease being a weaponthane for that time. Possibly even cease being a Vingan for that time, joining Ernalda instead. She might decide to return to Vinga afterwards, but will find her professional career damaged, and her former position unavailable. (Sounds familiar?)
What if the sabbatical isn't granted? Then the pregnant warrioress can quit (if she hasn't been thrown out already), or abort (including a magical transfer of the fetus, if such is available - Welsh mythology has a similar occurrance in the Mabinogion, quite on topic).
Sad, but true. If she lives out her female nature, she won't be one of the guys, but only a tolerated hanger-on. However, that is no different from most other speciality deity cultists.
Whatever those are, and however they manifest. Note that "King of Dragon Pass" has a Vingan variant of the Aroka quest where the Dark Woman is fought and the other troll (ZZ?) is seduced, but no child results (immediately). This indicates that there are ways around this, ways that may be harder than doing it "straight". Another unfriendly but obvious parallel to women in our modern society (e.g. in research), although in our society tied to pregnancy only.
Death Magic and Procreation do interfere with one another. Still, this doesn't prevent Humakti of either sex from procreating if the less extreme way is taken. And which of these alternatives would you want to live on your stead, the Death Maniac, or the deadly warrior with some remaining empathy for life?
(What has this to do with Vinga? Humakt is as much a fringe cult as Vinga, with lots of different opinions how to handle this. Interestingly, the arguments are less emotional when discussing Humakt...)
Nor are there about Orlanth Adventurous being a father (though lots of progenitor).
"Not we choose our gods, the gods choose us." This doesn't mean we have to go all the way. When Harmast discovered that Niskis had called him, he had no choice but cease being what he wanted - a farmer.
Well, not everybody has a calling as strong as Harmast. The vast majority of Heortlings live a much less magical life than one of the greatest heroes of Orlanth ever. I guess this means that there will be Niskis worshippers who are not encouraged to leave the clans, if their calling is less devoted. And there will be Alynx worshippers inside a clan.
Would a sane woman join Vinga-Harst if she can get away with double initiation to Issaries and Ernalda the Healer (e.g. Enferalda)? Less financial and time cost, but less magical benefit too.
> Few actual historians would agree with your impression. Iron age
> Celtic society did not have women warriors - they had a mythic
> archetype of a warrior goddess (as did the Greeks). Queen Mebd,
> Cartimandua, and Boudica - none were described as having actually
> ever fought in combat.
Nor do the sources tell us whether them doing so was more socially acceptable than Jeanne D'Arc.
> The Romans described the Gaullic women as being
> present at battles, but not as combatants. And so on.
The Langobard migration myth has the women line up with the men in a desperate battle, using their hair (worn open) to imitate the (long) beards and open hair of the men.
The Scythian amazons are as recurring a theme in archaeology/prehistory as are the Vingans in Heortling mythology. There is also the interesting fact that a number of European myths have fighting and war goddesses - in Greek myth the Amazons, Athene (and to a lesser degree Artemis, but in the same degree lesser than Apollon from Ares), in Norse myth the Disir and Valkyries, in Irish myth Morrigan, Babd, Macha and Nemain, in Welsh myth Branwen and Cymidei Cymeinfoll (the name meaning "pregnant in battle"). Or heroic figures like Dido, foundress of Carthage.
One thing most of these warrior goddesses have in common is that they are quite ancient, preceding Roman and Greek historians. Their mythic cycles (as much as they are remembered) precede the "male fantasy" ones (like the Iliad or Finn and the Fiona).
Greg has included this in patriarchalic Peloria (of all places) with Survival Age figures like Orogeria and Natha (aspects of Sedenya) and Naveria (and also Late Green Age queendoms preceding Naveria). Not to mention mysterious SurEnslib and her weaker reflections. I find it highly unlikely that there isn't a similar tradition hidden somewhere among the Heortling myths. One that went into the Vinga myths.
So, in all the Vinga myths there ought to be a place for the pregnant warrioress. And it shouldn't be the rule, but an exception from the exception.
Blast, this is way to conciliant for this list...
Powered by hypermail