John, once again, makes good points. His last question was also one that occurred to me. Why is it that Greg wants to rewrite the most written-about goddess in the canon? It did occur to me that he might be wanting to reclaim her as his creation, which she initially was.
To give people an idea of how popular Vinga is, of the stories that Oliver Berneutz has catalogued on Mything Links, 17 are about Vinga. Of the gods, only Humakt, Orlanth and Eurmal have more (27, 18 and 18 respectively). Ernalda, Maran Gor, Babeestor Gor, Ty Kora Tek and Gorgorma have none. Chalana Arroy has two, and Esrola and Mahome have one each. There you are, that's the massed interest in just about all the other goddesses that belong in Orlanthi society.
When that many people game with, and create stories about, just one goddess, she's definitely answering something needed in the world. It also means that heaps of people feel a proprietary interest in her, as John does. So, when you and Greg bomb us from above, it's no bloody wonder that the flak is being returned hot and heavy.
Now, actually, I never thought that Vingans have to try to be weaponthanes, no more than most of the men do. My Vinga is quite capable of the womanly skills of weaving, brewing, etc, but saw no reason to be denied the ordinary feats of weaponry that her brothers were taught. IMO, those who follow Vinga as a calling at their initiation are more likely those who want to practice with the fyrd, and be able to defend themselves and others at need. When the guys are away, an extra spear at home is a damn good idea. My Vinga is very good at many things, but not necessarily the pre-eminent at any.
Which brings up another point: she draws as much from Ernalda as from Orlanth. Thus, she is not, and never will be, the 'female' Orlanth. She gets 'There is always another way.' AND 'No-one can make me do anything.' AND 'Violence is always an option.' To some (Jeff included), this is letting her have the best of both worlds. This riles them, and they want to cut her down to size by claiming mythical strictures to her freedom. Apparently, they don't want to have characters around who take their society up on all of its mottoes.
Why do Jeff and Greg conclude that Vingans should therefore be punished by being declared 'men' just by virtue of being weapon-trained? Are they that threatened by the idea of women being able to wield weapons effectively that they must handicap every one that does? Look at them all! They're either 'men', or ritually man-haters. Babeestor Gor's an ugly, man-hating axemaiden, Vinga's a guy-in-disguise, Maran Gor takes human sacrifices for choice, and so on. How inviting for everyone! Sorry, but I don't buy into that warped view of fighting feminity.
I will concede the point that a person (man or
woman) who wanted everything his or her own way, and
didn't give back to their society, would be unwanted
in the worst way. Who says Vinga is like that? She
forced her view on one main point. Vingans may train
with weapons, and do other non-traditional pursuits.
Other than that, they are surely expected to
contribute their best efforts towards their clan with
the skills that they have. If they feel called to
leave the clan, and take to the trails for a living,
well, knowing how to defend yourself is a very good
idea.
I, like others who have had their turns with this subject, do not quibble with Ernalda as the primary cult for women in Heortling society. However, since many, many campaigns need some mobility, Ernaldans remain poor choices as PCs. They are too tied to home and hearth, they are tied there by marriage and children. So, fine, Vinga is the best of the available cults for those wanting female PCs, as she's very versatile. Very much like Orlanth is, purposefully so.
So, there are solid, practical gaming reasons to have her the way she is. Everyone cedes this. That doesn't mean that there need be any real difference between the "deep" mythic reality, and the Vinga we know and have grown over the years. To say so is to add unnecessary complications to a very workable mythic structure already in existence.
So, take off, eh?
Alison
Slut. Dyke.
She's not really a woman you know.
Which probably says more about the Storm Tribe than most of us are prepared to acknowledge.
... There are at least three views of Vinga - hall, hearth and gateway. You [Jeff] seem incapable of comprehending anything beyond a bizarre distortion of the view from the hall, the Loyal Daughter devotees. Gateway means woman leaders and specialists, the most talented and motivated women of the clan. The leaders. Leaders now denied offspring. Leaders 'encouraged' into same sex relationships.
I was initially only faintly peeved by this misogynistic sexist shit, despite the fact that it was my work among others being so smugly shat upon. Tonight I reread the Vinga writeup with a mental crayon scribbling out every bit rendered false or useless by this latest self indulgent demolition. There is not much left.
And now I'm angry. Angry enough to say nothing.
Is it just coincidence that the two most popular
community developed cults, Vinga and Sun County era
Yelmalio, have both now been the subject of
retro-fitting designed to totally knock the sails out
of them?
John
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