Re: Terror in war

From: David Cake <dave_at_pGyb2R1w5mTQ-_Vn1J6_GlVagI0AMXpq-N5PBnYNx-NXio47J9et6erZpSsQCbyUrQxbFk_>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 17:26:37 +0800

At 7:21 AM +0000 27/8/07, Jeff Richard wrote:
>Hi Alison -
>
>> Killing Lunars, whether military, admin and
>> settlers, again, no argument. They're furriners, and
>> they don't belong. No kin, no qualms.
>
>I think this is right as well. I assume that attacks against Lunar
>settlements was probably a key goal of any Sartarite irregulars
>carrying war against the Lunars - including Kallyr.
>
>> Killing
>> Sartari individuals and groups, that's far more
>> problematic. Even if they are putatively in the Lunar
>> camp, it's almost certain that many of their relatives
>> aren't. These are the people who had to accept Kallyr
>> as Prince, later on.
>
>Without saying for certain that Kallyr's band did kill pro-Lunar
>Sartarites, I think this would be less of a concern than you are
>making it. As long as Kallyr had enough support from enough tribes,
>she could make herself Prince - even if several clans, or even a tribe
>or two sought vengeance against her. Frex, the Antorling clan had a
>feud against King Tarkalor (who defeated King Penterest, a Colymar
>king who fought against him).

        I think the context matters to non-zealots. Your average Storm Bully will take the 'any chaos is all chaos' line perhaps - but most folk are going to see a big difference between a clan that has been fighting with the Lunars for political advantage, and a clan that accepted Lunar aid during the Fimbulwinter as a matter of clan survival.

        Your interpretation is that Kallyr (and, by extension, pretty much all the Orlanth and Ernalda mainstream) see no difference, see the slightest compromise in the direst of need as every bit of deserving of brutal murder, regardless of kin links, tribal alliances, etc.

        There is an enormous amount of evidence in the Gloranthan sources to suggest that this is not mainstream behaviour.

        And from a purely literary point of view, if mainstream Orlanthi are brutal killers who are accepting of vicious murder to punish any wavering, then all the minority cults whose social purpose is to fulfill that role or similar become more or less pointless, unless they become even more extreme. Storm Bull has to be MORE extreme than simple being willing to kill anyone who even flirts with chaos - if the Orlanthi already up for murder of woman and children (some of whom probably kin) for accepting aid from even Teelo Norri when the alternative is death by starvation, what must the Storm bulls be like? Murdering anyone in the street without warning for having allegedly soft-on-chaos haircuts?

>If a clan embraced the Lunar Way (say by building a temple to the
>Seven Mothers and strongly backing the Lunars), they could run the
>risk of being attacked by a Sword Rebel band.

	Yes, indeed.
	This is, however, a rhetorical tactic I've seen you use before.
	First make the outrageous ambit claim.
	Then present a far less extreme, more reasonable, version of 
the original contention.
	Ignore your original, more extreme and problematic claim, not 
address it directly, but only defend a watered down version.
	Pretend this means you are winning the argument/convincing 

anyone of your original position.

        Sure, clans that strongly back the Lunars by making a political choice to put strong effort into Lunar goals run a strong likelihood of getting reprisals from the hard core followers of the other side.

        This does NOT translate into mainstream political leaders slaughtering non-combatants wholesale and callously for accepting some aid when their survival is at stake.

	Cheers
		David