Re: Terror in war

From: Alison Place <alison_place_at_Xao-IuCKgSxgEWWi5bFLk4OUnML0Jp-X8KvRN2iYCK9LvWXA-R5PcunZ6bxlC9x>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:05:05 -0700 (PDT)

     According to your examples, she's been killing people from many clans of many tribes. This is entirely different from sparking a feud with one clan from one tribe.  

> If a clan embraced the Lunar Way (say by building a
temple to the
> Seven Mothers and strongly backing the Lunars), they
could run the
> risk of being attacked by a Sword Rebel band.

     Sure. Genuine Lunar followers, especially converts, are likely to have rebels trying to kill them. As in all civil wars, and this one is partly a rebellion against an invader, and partly a civil war against those who are partway willing to accept them, feelings aren't cut and dried. A great many people will quietly reserve judgement about what their in-laws or relatives have decided to do.

     If killings are committed, the relatives may still feel that this was wrong, and worth calling a feud over. Extremists always draw the line of collaborator way to the side of what moderates do, and that will cause a backlash against them.  

> BTW, for some Ancient World comparison check out 2nd
> Maccabees 8.5-.7 [snipped]

     Judah Maccabee did occur to me. He, unlike Kallyr, wasn't able to toss the Romans out. He and his followers were hunted down and killed. I can see the potential parallel, though, in your depiction of K and company.  

> > Killing Sartari refugees who are eating the
only
> > food in sight, Lunar-provided or otherwise, is not
> > saving traditionalists.
 

> Maybe not. But I doubt Kallyr would oppose such
actions and certainly would not mind them.

     But she *should* be minding that, at least. Even though Vinga may not be her primary divine allegiance during the height of the war, it's directly counter to the goddess whom she swore to emulate at her first initiation. I know that you can argue that many RW religious have done the same, but I think that this is the wrong argument to use. Gloranthans, as written, are supposed to be much more mindful of the consequences of committing acts that their gods deem wrong and much more in tune with the gods whom they choose or are chosen by.

     Now, I realise that I, a non-theist, feeling that my Gloranthans follow their religion better than RW people do, may be laughable. (Though I'd be curious to know whether this feeling's true for others as well.) Nevertheless, that's how I try to play them.

> And remember, this would take place during the
Fimbulwinter - when the gods are dead and the laws and morals of society have collapsed. [snip]

     That is a salient point. My counterpoint is that I'd also figure that those who kept their codes of behaviour righteous by Orlanthi standards even during those worst days would have the best claim to leadership after the crisis was over. Those who figure, hey, no spirits of retribution, so fuck everyone and steal their food, are not the models that a sane person would want in power.

> keep in mind that within three years, Kallyr and her
> companions were willing to summon a True Dragon
(something that
> prior to the Fimbulwinter would be seen as a truly
evil and insane
> thing by most people) to devour thousands and
thousands of Lunars.  

     Dragons, atomic bombs of Glorantha. Right, it may have insanely risky, but it worked. A definite argument in K's favour. Though I gather that there were people who were at least as important in getting that scheme off the ground.

     Though I don't see why it would be considered inherently evil. Dragonewts have been around for all of this time. so that contact's possible, and the Sartari weren't the population devoured and destroyed in the Dragonkill War, just the settlers who moved in centuries later.

> > I have my doubts that Sartar's Flame would
even
> > light for a person who had committed such divisive
> > acts. Sartar was a nationbuilder, and as a degree
of
> > discretion is obviously built into the Flame
[snip]
>
> Why do you think this? Assuming that the Flame of
Sartar is similar
> to the Vingkotling blood, it is not a moral test.
It tests whether
> the candidate is favored by the god - something that
Kallyr most
> defintely was and something Temertain never was.
[snip]  

> Yes - is she descended from the House of Sartar and
can she call
> upon Sartar's blessing? Once Kallyr assembled the
Iron Ring of
> Sartar and obtained the recognition from most of the
tribes, she
> could light the Flame.

> Temertain never assembled the Ring, and never held
the Regalia. As
> a result, he could only make the Flame flicker.
>
> Jeff

     It will depend on how one views the Flame. My view is that it measures the candidate against the standard of Sartar himself. Kallyr and others possess the mere blood qualification. Beyond that elementary necessity, what's needed? Valour, daring, imagination and endurance are certainly qualities that no-one would deny Kallyr. However, the Kallyr whom you described in following post as an excellent war leader, isn't, as you mentioned yourself, a decent candidate for the eventual peace. What Sartar excelled at was drawing disparate elements together to forge a lasting peace. I don't think that a Kallyr who had enacted the deeds that you list would be that person. So, I don't think she'd get Sartar's blessing in your version of her.

     Mostly, I can see the value in leaving the options open for GMs in whatever's published. Those who wish to go the full RW route of wartime atrocities, and cynical acceptance of same as one of the prices of future Lunar-free liberty or of a pacified Lunar province, would be free to do so. Others, who wish to game in a Glorantha that doesn't have such recourses condoned or accepted, could then denounce as obvious propaganda any hints that such tactics may have been used. Best of both worlds. I'm a Canadian; compromises are our specialty.

All the best,
Alison              



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