From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #67 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Thursday, April 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 067 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. RE: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. [RQ-RULES] The campaigns Re: [RQ-RULES] Ghosts RE: [RQ-RULES] Ghosts [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit(2) [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. Re: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. Re: [RQ-RULES] The campaigns Re: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:17:31 +0200 From: Alain.RAMEAU@total.com (Alain RAMEAU) Subject: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. A few months (years ?) ago, I proposed on the glorantha-list a new art called Reverse. After various discussions on the lists, including Sandy, it appeared difficult to implement and not as useful as I thougt. So I gave up with that Art (even in my house rules). But today I have another Art to propose. In my house rules (and I think I am not too far from Sandy's Sorcery rules) the limitation for manipulating Art is 1 point per 10%. This is IMO a good thing to avoid too powerful sorcerers. On the other hand, sometimes this limitation have sytrange results. For example, a Sorcerer of SIZ 16 with an Intensity of 60% and the Shapechange spell could not shapechange himself, as he would require 8 points (SIZ/2 according to Sandy's spell rules) and may use only 6 points of Intensity (60/10). To overcome this without going to far in power, I am thinking of creating a new Art named (first thought) "Boost". It would works as follows : Each point of manipulation (limited also by Boost/10) in that Art may be given to another Art (only one per casting, not splitting the points between two Arts or more) and may be used with the normal rules of the Art, but beyond the normal limit of that Art. Ex : For my above shapechanger, having a boost Art of 20% would entitle him to shapechange himself : He simply decides to add the two Boosting points in the Intensity, then reaching the necessary 8 points of Intensity. Any comments ? Alain. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:27:11 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. This is an intriguing idea, but thinking about it, all it is is a way of making all sorcery easier. Why learn Intensity to 60 and Boost to 20? Learning both to 40 is easier, and gives the same results. Better, in fact, because the Boost points can be applied to whichever art is needed at the time. Come to think of it, why not just have Intensity, Range, Multispell and Duration at about 40, and learn Boost up as high as you can? That way, you can have weak spells that last for ages, or strong spells that don't last very long, the only thing that you are losing is a bit of flexibility in the middle ground. I think Boost is too much of a free gift. Here's my suggestion for exceeding one's manipulation ability: If the sorceror manipulates the spell beyond the limit that his spell skill imposes, his chance of casting the spell is reduced by 10 percentiles per point of spell over his normal limit. In addition, if the spell fails, he loses all of the magic points for the spell, as per a normal fumble. If the sorceror actually fumbles, he loses a number of general hit points equal to the number of points over his normal limit, in addition to the magic points in the spell. If using a spell fumble table, it is left solely to the referee's jugement as to when or whether the table should apply, as I cannot judge how severe it is! A sorceror can thus learn a new spell and be able to cast it straight away, but at a risk. Alternatively, this option may only be available to Magus level sorcerors. This rule could also be applied in situations where a sorceror's Art ability is not sufficient, if Arts are skills with a limit on manipulation. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs A single death is a tragedy a million deaths are a statistic Josef Stalin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:30:20 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] The campaigns RU>Leon Kirshtein Thanks Leon, there are similar items on Simon Phipp's (? I think?) website. I believe he was the one who said that he eventually quit requiring experience checks and just gave out percent points to spread across the skill lists. The characters were 200 - 300% with their weapons before magic effects that could do things like double their skill and quadruple their damage. Long before this I would join Phillip's arguments regarding game balance. For good or bad, the game system was never intended for natural skills above about 120%, that is why so many people have tried to write their own Hero Quest rules. All systems of this nature have tended to be unbalanced and required the referee to carefully monitor the players' progress. Several have even abstracted combat or gotten rid of dice to create a much stronger story-telling atmosphere. Instead of creating monster characters and then having to create even more monstrous villains, I chose to reduce my expectations of what is needed to Hero Quest. Any Rune Lord or advanced Priest should be capable of doing it, and even experienced Initiates should have an even chance. The question that always looms ahead is "what is required to control or master a Rune and what effect will it have on the Physical Plane". The only real example we have been given of this is Sartar, and he only used his true power about six times. The stories of Arkat and Argrath are so vague regarding powers, that it is not possible to determine specific details. The only Hero in an official publication is Ralzakark in the Dorastor module. He is extremely tough by normal standards but it is made clear that most beings will apotheosize long before this. He chose to rule on earth rather than be a lesser god. Even at that, he is quite killable using properly prepared warrior cultists. The narative in 'Lords of Terror' is excellent for showing the progress of a war against him in a believable fashion. In the 'Dragon Pass' game and in Greg's own writings, a Hero is an Avatar that embodies the beliefs of an entire nation. CragSpider, Harrak, Gunda, Sir Ethilrist, Ralzakark and Jar Eel are Heros even though there is probably quite a bit of difference in their competancies. A SuperHero is a Hero that embodies the beliefs of an entire culture. Argrath and the Red Emperor are the SuperHeros for Orlanthi and the Empire respectively. Beings of the Hero level must be extremely rare, less than 1:100,000 and all of them are the leaders of their cult and/or the leader of their country. Long before a player character achieves this level, their loyalty and dedication will be tested repeatedly to insure that they will work for the best interests of their followers. As Arkat showed, dedication of this level superceeds the temptations of Illumination. A person who was moral and honorable before, will continue to hold those beliefs afterward, like an anchor that keeps a ship from drifting. The evil of Illumination is when the person allows the ends to justify any means. When I hear about Power Games it is mildly interesting in a humorous sense, but I can't help but think that the Gods Learners and the Gbaji are winning. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:19:54 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Ghosts RU>Depends, I suppose, on the game world. On Glorantha, I'm sure that your RU>arguments are sound, as they would be on many others. However, I've seen It is not so much a question of game worlds as of player personalities. RU>game worlds where evil sorts will kill you on Tuesday, bind your ghost RU>into their rug on Wednesday, and spend all day Thursday marching back RU>and forth on that rug with hob-nail boots, because you died before they RU>were finished making you suffer. The power gamer in my game had a bad habit of trying to do these things, and I occasionally had to let him succeed. RU>In one of my campaigns, I used the rule that a person's spirit hovered RU>near their body and/or place of death for up to seven days before RU>journeying on to their reward; the shaman in the party started popping RU>over to the spirit plane to interrogate defeated foes. He only quit This is described in the rules on Resurrection. A shaman should certainly be able to Discorporate and question nearby spirits. A few will even speak freely without coercion. To allow the RQ2 'Ball of Tails' to carry over into the RQ3 rules, I stated that shamans know how to bind an animal spirit into the tail or thumb (herdman) to get a Pow spirit. This is an obcenity to Waha, but chaos creatures will gladly do it. Jarst Daro had one of these in the 'Sun County' book. By extension, defacing a body after death could anger the ghost and cause it to attack, and if defeated, be bound. This is, of course, an evil act because it dishonors the dead and violates all burial rituals. So trust the power gamer to want to do it to his enemies so that he could question the ghost and force it to serve him. I can hear Phillip talking again about game balance, and he's correct, it was a problem. The other players pressured the power gamer and he eventually quit trying when it failed on some Dwarves. The Dwarves don't have burial rituals since the body is just a machine, so there was no reason for the spirit to get angry. Most of the players' ghosts were lost spirits summoned from the spirit plane, several more were from the 'well of spirits' in Snake Pipe Hollow, a few were guardians bound by chaos or darkness foes, and the new trend is to find friendly ancestors so that there is no argument over mis-interpreting commands. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:22:10 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Ghosts >I can hear Phillip talking again about game balance, It isn't game balance that I'm worried about. I don't believe in it, I don't see why Shamans, Priests and Sorcerors should have access to equivalent magics to each other. What I was taking umbrage at was the power-gaming rules-lawyer attitude that seemed to be evident in the tactic of binding ghosts and using them as combat magic batteries. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs A single death is a tragedy a million deaths are a statistic Josef Stalin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:37:30 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Bound Spirit(2) RU> Therefore, my system could also give added value to the shaman in a RU> party of adventurers because he is here too to refill other RU> character's binding matrices. My rules for summoning/searching in the RU> spirit planes an already know spirit are amended accordingly RU> (simplified in this case, especially less time is necessary). Shamen are greatly weakened because if they summon a spirit or Discorporate to find one they have to defeat it in spirit combat, which reduces it's MP's to 0, before they can Control it. Then it is put into the bind and takes several days to recover. RU> But the main reason for this change was to give a better interest to RU> have a MP matrix enchantment instead of a Power Spirit (or other) RU> Binding Enchantment. I always thought that with RQ3 rules, the second RU> first one was a bit useless compared to the second one ? I saw someone argue that MP Matrices are a Gods Learner trick to replace MP Crystals. In some cultures, MP Matrix Enchant may be easier to find than Binding Enchant, Summon Pow Spirit and Control Pow Spirit. These people would use the simple method even though it is not quite as good. Remember, the game was designed so that most people never have a chance to get most spells. They can get their cult's spells and they can pay three or four times as much to get allied cult's spells. Even several types of shamen can only use certain types of spirits and spells because of cult restrictions. Generally only Waha, Daka Fal, and unaligned shamen can use all types of spirits and all spirit spells. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:43:32 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. RU> To overcome this without going to far in power, I am thinking of RU> creating a new Art named (first thought) "Boost". RU> Each point of manipulation (limited also by Boost/10) in that Art may RU> be given to another Art (only one per casting, not splitting the RU> points between two Arts or more) and may be used with the normal rules RU> of the Art, but beyond the normal limit of that Art. RU> Any comments ? My suggestion was to change skill/10 to skill/5 so that a master can manipulate 18 points. Then you don't need a new Art. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:25:15 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. Alain RAMEAU wrote: > A few months (years ?) ago, I proposed on the glorantha-list a new art > called Reverse. After various discussions on the lists, including > Sandy, it appeared difficult to implement and not as useful as I > thougt. I must have missed this in it's entirety (which is rare for me, I gnerally skim the GD for such things). > For example, a Sorcerer of SIZ 16 with an Intensity of 60% and the > Shapechange spell could not shapechange himself, as he would require 8 > points (SIZ/2 according to Sandy's spell rules) and may use only 6 > points of Intensity (60/10). But with a decent skill in Ceremony, he'd have 12 points of manipulation to work with; more than enough to cover his SIZ, and maybe a couple of levels of Ease to boot. Ceremony was one of the major skills in my last campaign; my sorcerer'd hole up someplace and spend hours recasting spells with Ceremony on them to boost the power of them. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:30:13 PDT From: "Leon Kirshtein" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] The campaigns >From: stancliff@commnections.com > Thanks Leon, there are similar items on Simon Phipp's (? I think?) >website. I believe he was the one who said that he eventually quit >requiring experience checks and just gave out percent points to spread >across the skill lists The thing which you have to consider is: What do you enjoy and what your players enjoy. All else is secondary. There is no 'right way to play'. There is only play and no play. Leon Kirshtein ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:27:18 -0500 From: Marc Robertson Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] New Sorcery Art. Alain RAMEAU wrote: [snip] > To overcome this without going to far in power, I am thinking of > creating a new Art named (first thought) "Boost". > > It would works as follows : > > Each point of manipulation (limited also by Boost/10) in that Art may > be given to another Art (only one per casting, not splitting the > points between two Arts or more) and may be used with the normal rules > of the Art, but beyond the normal limit of that Art. > > Ex : For my above shapechanger, having a boost Art of 20% would > entitle him to shapechange himself : He simply decides to add the two > Boosting points in the Intensity, then reaching the necessary 8 points > of Intensity. > > > Any comments ? > > > > Alain. I'm trying out a different approach. I limit the manipulations to a spell like Alain does, but have also changed how Ceremony works. A sorceror can use Ceremony to increase the amount of manipulation done to a spell, at a rate of 1 extra manipulation per round of Ceremony, limited to the "base" manipulation, or Ceremony/10, whichever is less. In addition, the magic points for the extra manipulation are paid DURING the Ceremony( 1 point per round of Ceremony ), and are lost, regardless of the spells success or failure. Also, the sorceror can use Ceremony for increasing the spell chance, OR increase the manipulation, not both. I have not yet tested this approach( currently I'm starting a new campaign on WebRPG and none of the character are sorcerors( yet ), so I don't know for sure how well the mechanics of it work, but it seems like a good starting place. I should mention that I don't use Sandy's system, as I think it adds too much complexity. - -- All opinions expressed are my own Marc Robertson email: Principal Analyst robertson@acm.org DST Technologies Kansas City, MO USA *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #67 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. 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