From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #113 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, June 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 113 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] HW [RQ-RULES] Small note on Harrek Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest Re: [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars/Runequest:Slayers Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:38:09 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: [RQ-RULES] HW > I have posted Mamoru Kurihara the Charles Domino 4-part (p)review of HW > from the Glorantha Digest. Mail me for a copy, if 3 people ask then I'll > post it here. If you are really interested in HW, though, join the > Glorantha list (details on glorantha.com). > > philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com > http://members.tripod.com/~PhilHibbs/ > You never know what is enough > unless you know what is more than enough. > - William Blake > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:44:28 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Small note on Harrek RU>Pete Metcalfe has written an excellent description of Harreks RU>adventures abroad, mainly detailing how it is a massive HeroQuest to RU>make him into a Hero by getting him his own Star in the Sky. I think RU>the definition of Hero remains undefined by neccessity. RU>Nikk Why do so many people think that a non-light based hero would want a star to defend? It is an option, but it doesn't seem intuitive or a preferred choice. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:10:44 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest RU>Hey, Bob, I hope your program doesn't eat up too much of this message,'cos RU>FUN !! RU>> It isn't hard to take a Sword of Humakt with 90% skills, iron armor, RU>> and good spells, and incapacitate two to four normal people per round. RU>True, but you have to cheat by saying that standard skill levels are RU>unrealistically low, etc.. ad nauseam. It isn't unrealistic for a peasant farmer in a feudal culture not to own a real weapon. Handing him one and calling him a soldier doesn't give him any experience. In history, most levy troops used pitchforks and scythes with little or no combat training. Saying they have 50% is generous. They may be master plowsmen and seed spreaders, or master herdsmen, but they only have minor skill with any weapon that isn't an integral part of their life, like the yeoman and his bow or a herdsman and his sling. Germanic hill men that form the stereotype for Orlanthi rarely even had a sword, just a sharp pointy stick or a stone spearhead. Besides, the Humakti Rune Lord in my example is going to be able to incapacitate quite a few foes no matter how good their weapon skills are. Being poor, they will have inferior weapons that break easily, inferior armor that can't take a lordly blow, and inferior magic that won't let them penetrate his armor and spells. RU>And the gods are HQ characters, so what's wrong with rules for 'em? Anyway, RU>'cos I've broadened scope IMG don't mean the PCs in the game will ever get u RU>Mother of Monsters level, ugh !!! I mean, that's nearly Superhero level ... RU>diamond dwarfs are a different story, 'cos they're more common ... I don't mind writing them up, I just don't see a pressing need to say they have over 1000%, and I certainly don't think any player, even a super hero should be that high. RU>This would be a really *nice* idea, if it weren't for the unrealistically lo RU>levels of standard RQ grunts.To clarify, among the Hsunchen every adult would RU>realistically be expected to be a Master of every cultural skill. This general RU>mastery of skills is widespread in RW quasi stone age societies. RU>In fact, in RuneQuest, skill Mastery isn't something which is terribly difficult to RU>acheive, and to imply that ordinary soldiers (for example) are devoid of dedication RU>is a cop-out. In a RQ world a person is considered adult by 15 and able to support themselves, but certainly not a master of anything. They should have better skills than they do. In RQ, like the real world, the bulk of the soldiers are between 15 and 25 and the bulk of those are under 20.. The young ones are under 70% and the old ones are weapon masters. a common encounter with grunts should have a mix of skills between 50% and 80% led by someone with mastery. IT's all relative to age. At age 18, he might have one mastery in his profession. You can add one or two masteries per year until he is an old man around 45 and dies by 50. As for standard RQ grunts, yes, they are slightly under-rated unless you specifically mention that they are young people like the party members. Historically, soldiers ARE lacking in dedication. Gold-bricking and Looking-Busy are the first skills they master. They do become good soldiers eventually, or they die young. RU>> RU>> Do you just abstract the results? RU>> RU>RPG combat is abstract anyway ... RU>> A combat system abstracts real life RU>Not Real LifeNo way Jose ... Just because the attempt fails, doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt. An abstraction IS a distorted view of life. RU>> The Hero Wars post suggests that they will abstract the Heroic combat RU>> to a small set of die rolls that have nothing to do with individual RU>> swings, impales, crits, or any of the details that go into RQ3 If this is done badly, it could end up a little like D&D combat, but I think it will be smoother. RU>always hated that idea ... Oh well, cult duties call, I can't stay and talk... etc. RU>Don't think so. HQ was, originally, concieved as a RQ supplement AFAIK. Right now I am thinking of the new game as a large supplement. RU>23 - 27 year olds then? So it is usual for people just out of adolescence to RU>skills masters? Sounds right to me ... I have no problem with an age 25 rune lord, but who are you calling an adolescent!! I've worked 10 years for those masteries. Actually, in the more primitive regions, a boy could become a man by 11 (hence the Bar-Mitzvah), and girls could even marry. History shows girls married at 9 and getting pregnant. Extended families allowed such young adults to continue learning even while considered adult. If you have done the math, Greg subtly worked this factor into the game world by making the calender about 4/5 of the real world calender. A 15 year old RQ 'adult' is really closer to 12 in our terms, but by calling him 15, we treat him like a 15 year old. This could easily be the final missing factor to rebalance your skill expectations. RU>No. THE unrealistic game mechanic is the skills bonus for high characteristics RU>it has far too much influence. Unrealistic, but fine, of course, for heroic fantasy IMHO. I don't find the bonuses at all unreasonable. Some like Agility and Stealth, I consider too low. What's wrong with a system that says a person who is gifted with a good strength and dexterity will be a better fighter his whole life. Or that a person with a better intelligence and presence (appearance) will be a better orator. The bonuses are best used as an excuse to get players to specialize each character in a different profession. Besides, category bonuses have no affect on experience checks, only on skill roles. RU>... If you want heroism and realism, then you'll find NO heroes in the RU>RW.Hero level is superhuman in nature, so balanced and logical experience ru RU>cannot produce a hero. Heroes break the normal rules, almost by definition. I don't recall finding magic in the real world and it is essential for Heros, I simply don't accept that superhuman requires super-skilled. Try using the Hercules and Xena shows as examples: they are superhuman in presentation, but very few of their skills are above mastery. Hercules has a god-like strength and Zena has a god-like dexterity. She even fought down Aries in one show. RU>> ... Artifact level magics. Anyone who can hit their opponent most of the RU>> time will be able to do heroic acts if they have the knowledge and RU>> equipment. RU>Yes, here I can agree. But I think that we need rules that can do this QUICK RU>200% RQ3 doesn't. What do you mean by quick? The math is a problem? Last night we fought a very extended Chaos Gaggle led by a smart (chaos enhanced) Quim spit monster. I was getting +4% from Str, +10% from Coord, +30% from BldShrp and a variable bonus for the Siz over 20 for a base axe skill of only 45% (my main weapon is BstdSwd but I wanted the extra punch). I was figuring specials and crits in my head. My Pole Axe was doing 3d6 base + (d6 +1) str + 6 BldShrp + 5 DmgBst. My armor was a mix of 5AP on legs and chest with 10AP otherwise, with Prot 7 and Shield 2. I took a 28 pt bite to the leg and was barely incapacitated since Vigor was adding 5HP's to my total. Yeah, it can get tough. It actually took three hours to kill 15 large gorp, 4 chaos wyvern, 4 chaos goats, 1 giant chaos snake, 1 slithering whale, and drive off the spit monster. When the real Quim showed up to eat the spit monster, we hid in a cave and the session ended. My character is an 18 year old genius who's best skill is low 80's. I made most of my spirit binds and Strengthening enchants and am trying to get the spells to become a Pavis acolyte because I recently found Balastor's axe (I turned it into a poleax when I replaced the old haft). To date, I have defeated several large trolls and one Storm Khan in personal combat. I had to shatter the Khan's shield and hack his mount to get him. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:40:04 EDT From: David Weihe Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars/Runequest:Slayers > > From: Tal Meta > > Yes, but eventually, the "copyright" on the rules system will expire, > > even if the name is still in use. Someone (one of us, even) is likely to > > salvage the RQ3 system and put it out under another name. (Is that > > possible? Or does Chaosium technically still own the BRP derivative > > system? A lawyer I'm not.) > From: stancliff@commnections.com > This might take ten years or more, or someone might keep reapplying > for copyright. On the other hand, I think Chaosium still owns BRP, and > could resupport some aspects of the older systems if they do. It just > couldn't use the RuneQuest name. Gamers like us could work with them to > develop Gloranthan material under the BRP banner. Worse, I'm afraid. Now that the US has joined the world-wide Copyright Convention, the copyright will last about 50 years after the death of last living author. Even if it was copyrighted before that date, they would last to around the middle of next century, if AH or Chaosium are still around to reapply. Copyrights have always lasted much longer than patents; now they last effectively forever. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:02:44 GMT From: "N.J. EFFINGHAM" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest > RU>Yes, here I can agree. But I think that we need rules that can do this QUICK > RU>200% RQ3 doesn't. > What do you mean by quick? The math is a problem? > Last night we fought a very extended Chaos Gaggle led by a smart > (chaos enhanced) Quim spit monster. Actually, having read this, I begin to see Bob's point. I ahve to admit that the only characters that i have ever met that had skills of 200%+ were either sorcery enhanced humans, and let us be honest, you don't find THAT many of them around, and non-humans (greater orcs, trolls etc...). I think I'd agree with Bob, humans have skills that rarely run over 150%, although I think I could be forced to make an exception for the long lived or the exceptional heroes (i.e. Harrek), but even then I certainly would not rate them in the 1000's, leaving those sort of ridiculous weapopn percentages for the eternal mistress race and Godtime horrors. Just my two cents, Nikk Nikk Effingham eng7nje@leeds.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/7556/ "If absolute power corrupts absolutely Where does that leave God?" -- George Daacon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:27:08 +0000 From: "David Boatright" Subject: Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest >From: Julian Lord >No. THE unrealistic game mechanic is the skills bonus for high >characteristics.ie, it has far too much influence. Unrealistic, but >fine, of course, for heroic fantasy IMHO. You must love most other game systems out there, where a single characteristic forms >= 50% of the chance of success with a skill. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:30:59 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest I'll TRY and make my lines short enough this time.Shouldn't you get a better e-mail program? > RU>> It isn't hard to take a Sword of Humakt with 90% skills, iron armor, > RU>> and good spells, and incapacitate two to four normal people per round. > > RU>True, but you have to cheat by saying that standard skill levels are > RU>unrealistically low, etc.. ad nauseam. > It isn't unrealistic for a peasant farmer in a feudal culture not to > own a real weapon. Handing him one and calling him a soldier doesn't > give him any experience. In history, most levy troops used pitchforks > and scythes with little or no combat training. Saying they have 50% is > generous. They may be master plowsmen and seed spreaders, or master > herdsmen, but they only have minor skill with any weapon that isn't an > integral part of their life, like the yeoman and his bow or a herdsman > and his sling. V. True. > Germanic hill men that form the stereotype for Orlanthi See also Celts, Picts, and Greeks. > rarely even > had a sword, just a sharp pointy stick or a stone spearhead. Besides, > the Humakti Rune Lord in my example is going to be able to incapacitate > quite a few foes no matter how good their weapon skills are. Being > poor, they will have inferior weapons that break easily, inferior armor > that can't take a lordly blow, and inferior magic that won't let them > penetrate his armor and spells. Gets taken out by a critical shot to the head, though.I don't think he's strong enough to just wade into enemies as a gloranthan hero should. Magic can correct this, but one of the worst features of AD&D is that game balance depends on access to magic items. A gloranthan hero should be able to perform heroic action with his bare hands. BTW, I'm focussing on the Fighter Hero, 'cos it's easiest. Analogies can be made with other hero types and non combat heroism ... > RU>And the gods are HQ characters, so what's wrong with rules for 'em? Anyway, > RU>'cos I've broadened scope IMG don't mean the PCs in the game will ever get u > RU>Mother of Monsters level, ugh !!! I mean, that's nearly Superhero level ... > RU>diamond dwarfs are a different story, 'cos they're more common ... > I don't mind writing them up, I just don't see a pressing need to say > they have over 1000%, and I certainly don't think any player, even a > super hero should be that high. Certainly not a player ! I mean any game would disintegrate at that level, I think.I am not advocating PC superheros ! Heroes, yes. 200% - 800% range grunt RuneMaster hero superhero/god in a scope of 0% - 100% - 2000% - 10.000% figures derived from my own local version of RQ. > As for standard RQ grunts, yes, they are slightly under-rated unless > you specifically mention that they are young people like the party > members. Party members don't have to be young ... > Historically, soldiers ARE lacking in dedication. Gold-bricking and > Looking-Busy are the first skills they master. They do become good > soldiers eventually, or they die young. Aaargh! I'm hit! > RU>> The Hero Wars post suggests that they will abstract the Heroic combat > RU>> to a small set of die rolls that have nothing to do with individual > RU>> swings, impales, crits, or any of the details that go into RQ3 > If this is done badly, it could end up a little like D&D combat, but > I think it will be smoother. Sounds like it WILL be somewhat like AD&D. But, isn't that wherethis thread started? I mean, after the iron diamond dwarfs ran away? > RU>23 - 27 year olds then? So it is usual for people just out of adolescence to > RU>skills masters? Sounds right to me ... > I have no problem with an age 25 rune lord, but who are you calling > an adolescent!! whoops, from latin, adolescent meaning 15 - 25 year old malesorry about that ... different meaning in english. > I've worked 10 years for those masteries. > Actually, in the more primitive regions, a boy could become a man by > 11 (hence the Bar-Mitzvah), and girls could even marry. History shows > girls married at 9 and getting pregnant. Extended families allowed such > young adults to continue learning even while considered adult. > If you have done the math, Greg subtly worked this factor into the > game world by making the calender about 4/5 of the real world calender. don't think so. Think that's an effect of the SunStop ...there are several different theories re: time in glorantha. > I don't find the bonuses at all unreasonable. Some like Agility and > Stealth, I consider too low. For Stealth, suggest you use the RQ4 (DEX - SIZ). SOME of RQ4 is excellent. > What's wrong with a system that says a > person who is gifted with a good strength and dexterity will be a better > fighter his whole life. Or that a person with a better intelligence and > presence (appearance) will be a better orator. > The bonuses are best used as an excuse to get players to specialize > each character in a different profession. Besides, category bonuses > have no affect on experience checks, only on skill roles. Sure, damn fine in heroic fantasy and glorantha !I'll vote for it ! Just don't think it's realistic, 'cos it ain't. How many people have you met who have any skill above 100% in the RW? (Of course in terms of comparative RPG realism, Basic RPG rules ! ) I just think that the skill mastery paradigms should be in synch with the experience system in RuneQuest, and that ordinary people should have the skill levels one would expect out of the system. Some measure of SuperRuneQuest is, then, necessary IMHO for heroic simulation. You don't of course have to accept my scope which is based on rules you're unaware of (mine). > RU>... If you want heroism and realism, then you'll find NO heroes in the > RU>RW.Hero level is superhuman in nature, so balanced and logical experience ru > RU>cannot produce a hero. Heroes break the normal rules, almost by definition. > I don't recall finding magic in the real world and it is essential > for Heros, I simply don't accept that superhuman requires super-skilled. OK, that's definitely true. But some Heroes *do* follow theSkillMaster Path to Herodom. > Try using the Hercules and Xena shows as examples: they are superhuman > in presentation, but very few of their skills are above mastery. > Hercules has a god-like strength and Zena has a god-like dexterity. She > even fought down Aries in one show. Can't judge, 'cos don't watch TV. (Ban TV! It's EVIL !!!)[foam exits mouth] Seriously, they sound like the kind of Hero I'd like to see more of. > RU>> ... Artifact level magics. Anyone who can hit their opponent most of the > RU>> time will be able to do heroic acts if they have the knowledge and > RU>> equipment. > > RU>Yes, here I can agree. But I think that we need rules that can do this QUICK > RU>200% RQ3 doesn't. > What do you mean by quick? The math is a problem? I wrote QUICKLY ... more below > It actually took three hours to kill 15 large gorp, 4 chaos wyvern, 4 > chaos goats, 1 giant chaos snake, 1 slithering whale, and drive off the > spit monster. When the real Quim showed up to eat the spit monster, we > hid in a cave and the session ended. Sounds like fun SuperRuneQuest to me!More power to you! To clarify: QUICKLY means, IMG, about as much time to kill a few hundred enemy soldiers, four or five hero-level opponents, the Bad Guy, various monsters and spirits, and still have time for beer. Using RQ compatible rules, ie no double character sheets necessary. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #113 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. 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