From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #114 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Thursday, June 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 114 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest [RQ-RULES] Character Sheets Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest Re: [RQ-RULES] Dragon Pass Digest Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:12 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest > I think I'd agree with Bob, humans have skills > that rarely run over 150%, although I think I could be forced to make > an exception for the long lived or the exceptional heroes (i.e. > Harrek), but even then I certainly would not rate them in the 1000's, > leaving those sort of ridiculous weapopn percentages for the eternal > mistress race and Godtime horrors. Hero Wars horrors v. similar to godtime horrors IMHO. These four-figureLand weapon percentages might be ridiculous, but it's only a game, so it doesn't matter. Depends on how your Glorantha functions, which I ain't dictating... I'd say that humans have skills which rarely run over 100%, actually, catching myself in the paradox of declaring someone else too generous with percentiles ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:23:50 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Character Sheets Who's got the best character sheets on the web (or in any emailable form)? I did have some Corel Draw character sheets, both for RQ 3 and 4 but I've lost the original files. I already have some PDF format character sheets courtesy of Craig Pay http://www.hccweb.demon.co.uk/glorantha/download.htm but there are a few changes I'd like to make. Unfortunately, I can't edit PDF files! philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com http://members.tripod.com/~PhilHibbs/ You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - William Blake *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:36:20 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest RU>I'll TRY and make my lines short enough this time.Shouldn't you get a better RU>program? I'm on a Worldgroup BBS by Galacticom (?) and when the mail system reflows the included text, it isn't doing it correctly. As it adds the new source reference to the left of the line, any characters on the right that go past a certain point are truncated. RU>> Germanic hill men that form the stereotype for Orlanthi RU>See also Celts, Picts, and Greeks. True, but the main Orlanth/Lunar conflict is Germanic/Roman in structure. It plays very well if you can run it with a Biblical flavor... the gods pay more attention to those who show more devotion, and spells are miraculous manifestations. This is a good argument for Rune Points instead of individual spells. RU>Gets taken out by a critical shot to the head, though.I don't think he's str RU>enough to just wade into enemies as a RU>gloranthan hero should. Magic can correct this, but one of the RU>worst features of AD&D is that game balance depends on access RU>to magic items. A gloranthan hero should be able to perform RU>heroic action with his bare hands. Argrath, Harrek, and the Only Old One can be taken out by an unparried critical, you or I could do it, presuming we got very lucky before they hit us, but that is what the other six guys and the allied spirit are for. That critical has to be unparried or big before it can take the head off, otherwise a quick Heal Wound will get him back on his feet by the next round. The Rune Lord is heroic, and for reasons other than his weapon skills! As for the bare hands, I suggest researching Martial Arts and getting a good Ironhands and Damage Boost, although it will slow you down slightly by using natural weapons (higher SR). RU>Certainly not a player ! I mean any game would disintegrate at that level, RU>think.I am not advocating PC superheros ! RU>Heroes, yes. 200% - 800% range RU> grunt RuneMaster hero superhero/god RU>in a scope of 0% - 100% - 2000% - 10.000% RU>figures derived from my own local version of RQ. I just prefer grunt:50%, Runic:100%, Hero:150%, Superhero:200%. These are only rules of thumb since the skill is not adequate without the Questing knowledge that has to go with it, even for Mostali or Mistress Race. RU>> As for standard RQ grunts, yes, they are slightly under-rated unless RU>> you specifically mention that they are young people like the party RU>> members. RU>Party members don't have to be young ... I was discussing that module encounters were written specifically for introductory parties and were made weaker to balance the encounter level, but it is also quite possible that the dirty missions like those encounters were used for, would be given to the less experienced soldiers to help them with their training. That would also justify their being under skilled. RU>> girls married at 9 and getting pregnant. Extended families allowed such RU>> young adults to continue learning even while considered adult. RU>> If you have done the math, Greg subtly worked this factor into the RU>> game world by making the calender about 4/5 of the real world calender. RU>don't think so. Think that's an effect of the SunStop ...there are several different RU>theories re: time in glorantha. I was having this same series of arguments with myself four years ago when I was preparing to start my campaign and then I did the math and got that conversion factor. I was awe-struck by the simplicity of the psychology. The primative 'coming of age' was actually enforced and supported in players minds by the shortened calendar. The deviousness was incredible. RU>For Stealth, suggest you use the RQ4 (DEX - SIZ). RU>SOME of RQ4 is excellent. I am, it helps a little. RU>> The bonuses are best used as an excuse to get players to specialize RU>> each character in a different profession. Besides, category bonuses RU>> have no affect on experience checks, only on skill roles. RU>Sure, damn fine in heroic fantasy and glorantha !I'll vote for it ! RU>Just don't think it's realistic, 'cos it ain't. People are different, with different specialties and preferences. Games reflect this with stats and skill modifiers. Assigning percents to something vague like knowledge is the biased part. Knowledge can't really be reduced to a binary pass/fail. RU>How many people have you met who have any skill above 100% in the RW? RU>(Of course in terms of comparative RPG realism, Basic RPG rules ! ) The primary purpose of 100%+ is to reflect the acquisition of related knowledge beyond the actual skill area that still directly applies to the application of that skill. It also shows a more proficient ability to access the knowledge of the skill, allowing better chances for special and critical success. I work at a university and meet several 100%+ people a day, they are called PHD's. RU>I just think that the skill mastery paradigms should be in RU>synch with the experience system in RuneQuest, and that RU>ordinary people should have the skill levels one would RU>expect out of the system. It's not that bad if you say that most people over 22 will have multiple masteries appropriate to their profession, and can't gain rune status for any of several reasons, but due to the high mortality rate inherent in a primative world, the number of people over 40 drops off drastically. RU>Seriously, they sound like the kind of Hero I'd like to see RU>more of. Hercules and Xena are a lot of fun sometimes, but the humor can be very painful. RU>> It actually took three hours to kill 15 large gorp, 4 chaos wyvern, 4 RU>> chaos goats, 1 giant chaos snake, 1 slithering whale, and drive off the RU>> spit monster. When the real Quim showed up to eat the spit monster, we RU>> hid in a cave and the session ended. RU>Sounds like fun SuperRuneQuest to me!More power to you! And yet, my character wasn't using a modified skill over 100% and the highest % in the party was probably the Arrow Tranced elves at about 180% - 190%. The monsters had much better attack%'s, but we were better prepared and took them out piecemeal. RU>To clarify: QUICKLY means, IMG, about as much time to kill RU>a few hundred enemy soldiers, four or five hero-level opponents, RU>the Bad Guy, various monsters and spirits, and still have time for beer. RU>Using RQ compatible rules, ie no double character sheets necessary. You sound like you want a set of minatures rules to combine the actions of several people into one figure... ie, high abstraction of the combat system. You could also try multiplying the attack% by the average parry failure probability of the defenders to get a reduced value representing attack successes that are not parried. That would get rid of the parry roll. The only real way to speed up RQ combat is to get rid of Statement of Intent in favor of completing all actions for one fighter at a time in order of something like Int with a Dex tie breaker. Do movements first with a zone of control that is locking after the first hex of movement, then go back and do combat actions. Make a sorted list of everyone in the fight so that you can go down the list quickly. If an action like a horse charge would make a character continue past another, then resolve their attacks against each other immediately, dock it from their combat actions, and finish the move. And, most important, don't let side talk get in the way of keeping the action moving, or just punish side talk... I suggest random arrow crits from an unknown source. Because the system applies to both sides it will still be 'balanced', though there will be a small advantage to the side with Coordination if you choose to use Dex. This reduces the importance of SR, but SR's are just a combat sequencing method anyway. SR's are still useful to determine how many 'things' you can do in a round. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) to: INT:runequest-rules@MPGN.COM cc: INT:lackey@gator.net INT:afn50803@afn.org toobear *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:45:29 +1000 (EST) From: Robert McArthur Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Dragon Pass Digest > << Hmmm, different opinions as to whether or not to post DP & NG questions > here. >> > > There is a DP mailing list that would love your questions. > > Contact: Robert McArthur > Dragon Pass Digest > mcarthur@fit.qut.edu.au > Ask to be added Thanks Delecti for the plug. Note that you can also see what the list has been talking about by going to http://www.fit.qut.edu.au/~mcarthur/hypermail/index.html Note that it has not been active for some time - something about people having time? Anyway, one of the last things on the list was my index for Dragon Pass (AH version). Note also that it's not a mailing list per se, you send me email with the term 'DPD' somewhere in the subject (Dragon Pass Daily - though it's not quite living upto its name!), and it gets sent to everyone on the 'list'. Cheers Robert McArthur *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:14:51 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest > This is a good > argument for Rune Points instead of individual spells. I'm going that way too, once I'm more familiar with the RunePower stuff,'cos Greg has apparently Sed. > RU>Gets taken out by a critical shot to the head, though.I don't think he's str > RU>enough to just wade into enemies as a > RU>gloranthan hero should. Magic can correct this, but one of the > RU>worst features of AD&D is that game balance depends on access > RU>to magic items. A gloranthan hero should be able to perform > RU>heroic action with his bare hands. > Argrath, Harrek, and the Only Old One can be taken out by an > unparried critical, you or I could do it, presuming we got very lucky > before they hit us, but that is what the other six guys and the allied > spirit are for. That critical has to be unparried or big before it can > take the head off, otherwise a quick Heal Wound will get him back on his > feet by the next round. The Rune Lord is heroic, and for reasons other > than his weapon skills! Trouble is, in RQ criticals happen so often as to make Heroes impossiblewithout a rules tweak, or special magic. Heroquesting with RQ rules itself is definitely possible, of course. I'm talking about Heroes in large-scale action of WB&RM/NG type. > As for the bare hands, I suggest researching Martial Arts and getting > a good Ironhands and Damage Boost, although it will slow you down > slightly by using natural weapons (higher SR). Martial Arts are, IMO, based on a foundation of pure skill.Gloranthan Kung Fu warriors and Samurai shouldn't have to rely on magic to be effective, even in SuperRuneQuest. > RU>How many people have you met who have any skill above 100% in the RW? > RU>(Of course in terms of comparative RPG realism, Basic RPG rules ! ) > The primary purpose of 100%+ is to reflect the acquisition of related > knowledge beyond the actual skill area that still directly applies to > the application of that skill. Don't buy this ... I think that the primary purpose of 100%+ is tohave Kung Fu and Japanese Samurai movie-like combat in RPGs. Hey ! Sounds like fun to me, anyway! > It also shows a more proficient ability > to access the knowledge of the skill, allowing better chances for > special and critical success. Yeah, that's why I use ridiculously high percentiles IMG. > I work at a university and meet several 100%+ people a day, they are > called PHD's. I think they have lots of specialised sub-skills Mastered, actually.Hoping to be a PHD myself one day. Doesn't mean I'll have superhuman abilities ... > RU>I just think that the skill mastery paradigms should be in > RU>synch with the experience system in RuneQuest, and that > RU>ordinary people should have the skill levels one would > RU>expect out of the system. > It's not that bad if you say that most people over 22 will have > multiple masteries appropriate to their profession, and can't gain rune > status for any of several reasons, but due to the high mortality rate > inherent in a primative world, the number of people over 40 drops off > drastically. Ah, but healing magic flattens the mortality bell curve in Glorantha.I think it was Sandy Petersen who pointed this out. > RU>To clarify: QUICKLY means, IMG, about as much time to kill > RU>a few hundred enemy soldiers, four or five hero-level opponents, > RU>the Bad Guy, various monsters and spirits, and still have time for beer. > RU>Using RQ compatible rules, ie no double character sheets necessary. > You sound like you want a set of minatures rules to combine the > actions of several people into one figure... ie, high abstraction of the > combat system. This is what I've done, yes. > You could also try multiplying the attack% by the > average parry failure probability of the defenders to get a reduced > value representing attack successes that are not parried. That would > get rid of the parry roll. Tried it, but too complicated.I divide Parry% by ten, and add it to armour. This works 'cos damage is slightly higher IMG. With RQ3 values, P%/20 might be better. Similar rules cover defense vs. missiles. Elite High Skill units like the Full Moon Corps are difficult to stop. > The only real way to speed up RQ combat is to get rid of Statement of > Intent in favor of completing all actions for one fighter at a time in > order of something like Int with a Dex tie breaker. Do movements first > with a zone of control that is locking after the first hex of movement, > then go back and do combat actions. Make a sorted list of everyone in > the fight so that you can go down the list quickly. If an action like a > horse charge would make a character continue past another, then resolve > their attacks against each other immediately, dock it from their combat > actions, and finish the move. I run Munchrooms much like this, once, and great fun I had.Unfortunately, only one of the players liked the miniatures wargaming aspect ... so it wasn't as successful as I'd hoped. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:58:18 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] SuperRuneQuest RU>Trouble is, in RQ, criticals happen so often as to make Heroes impossible RU>without rules tweak, or special magic. RU>Heroquesting with RQ rules itself is definitely possible, of course. RU>I'm talking about Heroes in large-scale action of WB&RM/NG type. In those games, heroes can be taken out by normal troops. This is the effect of random criticals... but only the ones that couldn't be parried or were too big to be healed. The big thing is that heroes don't stay dead usually. Ressurection and other hero powers bring them back in just a few days. Any character who fancies himself a hero will have four or more Strengthening Enchants to boost his HP total. This can give enough location hit points to survive a 12 pt crit attack if someone is there to heal it... we ARE talking about crits by scrubs and grunts. Since the grunts don't have crit numbers over 4%, it can take a long time before my Rune Lord party goes down. I have had groups of six, with 50 - 60% weapons and good magic, wade through 40 or more weaker enemy with light armor. It was a close fight, but there was little doubt they would prevail. RU>Martial Arts are, IMO, based on a foundation of pure skill.Gloranthan RU>Kung Fu warriors and Samurai shouldn't have RU>to rely on magic to be effective, even in SuperRuneQuest. Any hero should train himself in some unarmed combat and have appropriate magic to make it moderately effective. Just as he should be able to pick up most weapons and fight adequately, though perhaps not with style. It is a little hard to find after so many years, but there was a game called Bushido that gave the special skills of the Samurai and the magics of Japan. You are obviously attracted to the old Kung Fu movies, so I suggest that if you don't have Feng Shui, you should find it. It has an extensive framework for extreme maneuvers in several styles of combat including swords and unarmed. RU>> The primary purpose of 100%+ is to reflect the acquisition of related RU>> knowledge beyond the actual skill area that still directly applies to RU>> the application of that skill. It also shows a more proficient ability RU>> to access the knowledge of the skill, allowing better chances for RU>> special and critical success. RU>Don't buy this ... I think that the primary purpose of 100%+ is to have RU>Kung Fu Japanese Samurai movie-like combat in RPGs. RU>I think they have lots of specialised sub-skills Mastered, actually.Hoping RU>to PHD myself one day. Doesn't mean I'll have superhuman abilities ... Think of the related sub-skills as supporting skills which add a success bonus to the central skill allowing it to reflect a value over 100%. As for superhuman abilities, I don't recall you having magic either. Superhuman also seems to depend on the type of human you are comparing yourself to anyway. If you compare to the average, then half of the population is superhuman in some factor or another. If you compare to the human extreme, then no one can be superhuman, because they can't be better than themselves. You would have to be non-human to be superhuman. RU>> It's not that bad if you say that most people over 22 will have RU>> multiple masteries appropriate to their profession, and can't gain rune RU>> status for any of several reasons, but due to the high mortality rate RU>> inherent in a primative world, the number of people over 40 drops off RU>> drastically. RU>Ah, but healing magic flattens the mortality bell curve in Glorantha.I think RU>Sandy Petersen who pointed this out. I know the reference, but it overlooked the fact that the most skilled and capable are the ones most likely to put their lives at risk for the sake of others. This increases attrition at the skilled Initiate and Rune levels. Add this to the already noticeable effects of envy, murder, political intrigues, not everyone can pay for the extreme healing magics which tend not to be reusable, some spirits fail to be ressurected, and the body breaks down at a much younger age due to the harshness of the more primitive lifestyle. Still, it is all just a plot device and not extremely important. Young characters should know to be careful around their elders who can usually kick their butts. RU>> The only real way to speed up RQ combat is to get rid of Statement of RU>> Intent in favor of completing all actions for one fighter at a time in RU>> order of something like Int with a Dex tie breaker. Do movements first RU>> with a zone of control that is locking after the first hex of movement, RU>> then go back and do combat actions. Make a sorted list of everyone in RU>> the fight so that you can go down the list quickly. If an action like a RU>> horse charge would make a character continue past another, then resolve RU>> their attacks against each other immediately, dock it from their combat RU>> actions, and finish the move. I actually need to play test this, I can envision a savings of 20%, or more, mainly from reduced confusion about who is doing what. The movement rules will create some bizzare effects as enemies try to maneuver behind each other. It will need a very short time scale like the RQ4 round of 5 seconds so that movements are small each action. This leans toward the Champions style rewrite I have been envisioning for a while. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) to: INT:runequest-rules@MPGN.COM cc: INT:lackey@gator.net INT:afn50803@afn.org toobear *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #114 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. 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