From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #135 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Monday, August 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 135 RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] Illumination [RQ-RULES] DMD - Nolzur for RQ/Greyhawk Re: [RQ-RULES] Illuminated Re: [RQ-RULES] Illumination Re: [RQ-RULES] Illuminated RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:34:35 +0100 From: Nikk Effingham Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Illumination > I clearly did not state that Nysalor created Illumination, but what I >said is true. Nysalor was considered a god of light and his version of >Illumination is just as valid as any previous form. Sorry, apologies, serves me right for speed reading e-mails i intend to reply to : ) >RU>Agreed. But I think it is also, as people other than myself have described >RU>it, "seeing yourself in god". It releases you from day to day concerns and >RU>makes you pause and think "why" or "what is this all about". So an Orlanthi >RU>may stop and wonder why he is plowing the fields, why he worships his gods, >RU>why he is working for an afterlife, why his life is the way it is. This >RU>drives most people mad, imagine waking up one morning and not caring >RU>whether you have an afterlife or not. > When we start asking these question in real life, we call it an >identity crisis, and we get over it. I don't necessarily agree with the >last two sentences, but they are a valid possibility. I think that the idea of the identity crisis is valid, but Illumination drives it to new extremes. Or, more to the point, GLoranthan culture. In the 20th century it is not unnatural to decide there is no afterlife, in 17th century Glorantha to most cultures this is a pretty wacky thing to be thinking - as is "why do I worship my god?". The identity crisis is very, very intense and a few sessions with a therapist won't help... >RU>Illuminate seeks. I'd rule that an Illuminate that starts abusing their >RU>powers can no longer advance in their Illumination. > You make it sound like there are skill roles and advanced training >involved... it tends to be rather all or nothing. I always liked the D:LoD rules where it says that not all powers are known by Illuminates and not all Illuminate powers are listed. I think that Illumination is about progressing along it's path and that not all Illuminates start off with all the powers. Although it isn't about skill roles and training, more about rewarding how well your player roleplays Illumination. In my campaign a character started off Illuminated, but with only one power. > Sorry, but I am convinced that the Gods Learners were illuminated. >The machine god was just the sort of perversion that can occur when >drawing on chaos amorally. While I admit I could be convinced that some of the God Learners were Illuminated it has been stated on several occasions that the ideology of the God Learners was directly oppossed to Illumination. I don't think Illumination was neccessary to the God Learners, although it may have been a useful "tool" for some of them. > I consider the probability of Illumination >to increase with age and feel it likely that the Mistress Race are >Illuminated and possibly Argrath by the time he becomes King of Dragon >Pass. I think that a large proportion of Uzuz are Illuminated - after all, with Arkat as their hero, what more proof do you need? As King of Sartar doesn't give us any evidence to Argrath being Illuminated one way or the other, I'd say that if he was it wasn't all that important to his being a Hero. IMO Illumination should be curbed, limited. It should be made rare and wonderous, even in areas like the Lunar Empire. I think that the chance and appearance of Illumination is unfairly shown by RQ products (how many NPC's were Illuminated in Lords of Terror?). There are far more things you can do to an NPC to make them seem wise/mystical/interesting/powerful than simply make them Illuminated, IMO. > It would be fairly easy to live in Pavis and worship Orlanth in the >Rubble, Yelmalio in Sun Town, Seven Mothers in Downtown, and Lanbril in >the slums. People who knew you might see you near some 'enemy' temple, >but excuses and alibis could be arranged in advance. It would be work, >but it could be done. By spreading the temples out farther and being a >traveler, you could move from holy day in one region to another holy day >in the next region without ever being caught. Pavis is a nice example, but also an exception. It is one of the few places where so many cultures meet and intermix. In most cases, to join a foriegn cult would require you to get over simple things like being foriegn. Of course, the Seven Mothers will ALWAYS have you, ESPECIALLY if you tell them you're Illuminated, but I'm sure they have their own strict set of rules to ensure that all Illuminates do not fall into the evils of Gbajism - and as a large proportion of Seven Mothers worshippers are Illuminated, it won't be long before someone finds out. > Arkat was certainly not in that category. He revered the myths and >the god plane, but he used each cult he joined for all it was worth. He >had enough honor to join his cults sequentially, not simultaneously. Arkat was a mad, deranged maniac with an obsession probably before he was Illuminated. So, indeed, he did carry on as he did beforehand : ) Plus, as a note, Arkat was a Dark Side Illuminate (bet I opened a can of worms there...). I don't think ALL Illuminates carry on as they did before hand i life, but quite a lot do. >RU>>The truly amoral will eventually join chaos cults to gain what they consider >to be >RU>>'real' power, and this is why Illumination is considered an atrocity in most >of the world. >RU>I never did see why people joined chaos cults. Even Illuminates! >RU>... As most Illuminates have no contact with, or ability to join, chaos >cults, >RU>I'd suggest that most Illuminates that are met do not associate with chaos. > Most don't, just those who fall farthest into depravity. Why do >people appease Malia? To gain immunity to disease... there is advantage >in chaos if you have no fear of chaos taint. The true power of chaos >for humans is inobvious chaos features such as stat increases. By >joining the right cult to use the right spell you can be guaranteed a >'good' feature (or pick one?)! Eventually you will turn into a broo, >but even that won't have an obvious visible transformation, and Krjalk >can hide the most hideous transformations imaginable. Having seen one of my players attempt to abuse chaos cults, I've seen how deadly it is. Chaos cults have a hierachy based upon abuse - PC's rarely get a chance to outwit them into getting power out of them. Normally they play with fire and die. Far easier to gain power by abusing a nice, normal cult such as Orlanth or Yelm where the priests are far dumber than chaos priests and less likely to suspect you of having a plan for world domination/ressurection of *insert gods name here*/ or ownership of *insert powerful magical device name here*. Plus, I'd prefer a big Sunspear to any of Thed's magic any day of the week : ) All IMHO, Nikk E. _______________________________________________________ Nikk Effingham E-mail: nikk@MailAndNews.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/7556/ "If absolute power corrupts absolutely where does that leave god?" --George Daacon _______________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:36:14 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] DMD - Nolzur for RQ/Greyhawk #58 - RQ/Greyhawk NOLZUR Runes: Illusion Nolzur is the Goddess of Substance from Dreams. Cult in the World Nolzur was the only daughter of one of the most powerful Shahs of the old Bakluni Empire. He loved his daughter so much, he could deny her nothing, not even tutoring in magic (which, for women, was simply "not done" in that Age.). Her tutors found her an apt student, but the one area where she shone the brightest was the magic of illusion. She might have become the most promising practitioner of that art if not for the fever that overtook her in her fifteenth year and left her too physically weak afterwards to even stand without assisstance. Unable to follow her true dream, she turned to art, where the same qualities of mind that allowed her to create perfect illusions gifted her with the talent to create breathtakingly beautiful paintings. So talented was she that it came as no surprise to her old teachers when her paintings began to take on lives of their own.... Nolzur's High Holy Day is the 11th of Fireseek, with lesser holidays on the 11th of every other month. Nolzur's faithful typically wear brightly colored wraps during worship services, which are usually held indoors. Lay Membership Requirements: Nolzur is worshipped mainly by physical artists (painters, sculptors, etc.) as well as some few illusionist magic wielders. Skills taught by the cult include Craft (painting, sculpting), Evaluate, Art Lore, World Lore, and Ceremony. Initiate Membership Requirements: Standard. Initiates of Nolzur receive expert tutoring in the arts, as well as practical visualization and representational skills. Spirit Magic: Countermagic, Improve (Painting, Sculpting), Repair. Priesthood Requirements: Standard. Nolzur's priesthood is often called upon to create enchantment runes for other practitioners of magic, especially when elaborate fine detail is desired. Nolzur's priesthood also produces a great many mundane works of art, and in urban areas often run popular schools to teach their techniques to non-magicians. Virtues for Nolzur include Creative and Spiritual. Common Divine Magic: all Enchantments, Initiate, Sanctify, Worship Nolzur. Special Divine Magic: Copy, all Illusions. Associated Gods None - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - I *am* one of the Chosen Few! ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 TANJ Lives! - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:22:14 EDT From: KESmith502@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Illuminated In a message dated 98-07-30 15:50:40 EDT, you write: << Agreed. But I think it is also, as people other than myself have described it, "seeing yourself in god". It releases you from day to day concerns and makes you pause and think "why" or "what is this all about". So an Orlanthi may stop and wonder why he is plowing the fields, why he worships his gods, why he is working for an afterlife, why his life is the way it is. This drives most people mad, imagine waking up one morning and not caring whether you have an afterlife or not. >> That's why I believe most, if not all, Orlanthi Tricksers are Illuminated. For example, in the depiction of Sartar's High Council the only person who "respects" the trickster is Gringle, known for his Heroquesting and "outlandish ways." IMO both are illuminated. Further evidence of trickster illumination can be found in the storyline of Cults of Terror. keith e. smith *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:08:54 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Illumination RU>... I'd rule that an Illuminate that starts abusing their RU>powers can no longer advance in their Illumination. If this were so, there would never be a 'dark side' of Illumination, or else these followers would be 'barely' Illuminated as you seem to feel. To become Illuminated, a person has to be in the 'correct' frame of mind, but that doesn't make them be benevolent or good. RU>I always liked the D:LoD rules where it says that not all powers are known RU>by Illuminates and not all Illuminate powers are listed. I think that RU>Illumination is about progressing along it's path and that not all RU>Illuminates start off with all the powers. Since it is easy for a player to abuse Illumination or even turn 'dark', I don't want to give it to a player who is a power-gamer. They are already too busy abusing the rules for me to make it easy. On the other hand, Glorantha has many evil Illuminates who have been tainted by the 'soul burning' power of chaos. It might not be 50%, but it is far too common. RU>Although it isn't about skill roles and RU>training, more about rewarding how well your player roleplays RU>Illumination. In my campaign a character started off Illuminated, RU>but with only one power. Several PC and NPC teammates were at the Eurmal Feast in Snakepipe Hollow about a year and a half ago, so I threw in a Riddler. As luck would have it, a male PC and a female NPC shaman 'saw the light'. I gave the player responsibility for both characters and described their mutual 'recognition'. The player actually thought I was having the PC and NPC fall in love, which was bad, since the PC was just about to get married. Once he understood how Illuminates recognized each other, he stopped talking to strangers he thought might be Illuminated because he was a good Orlanthi and wanted to hide his shame. They have yet to use any ability but covert detection, and the characters have shown some noticeable tolerance of the different magic types in spite of her shamanism, while several other characters have been very distrustful of things like sorcery. RU>While I admit I could be convinced that some of the God Learners were RU>Illuminated it has been stated on several occasions that the ideology of RU>the God Learners was directly oppossed to Illumination. I don't think RU>Illumination was neccessary to the God Learners, although it may have been RU>a useful "tool" for some of them. You're probably right about the reference. Greg was the original 'Gods Learner', drawing the different cultural mythos into a common mono-myth. This was reflected by RQ1 and RQ2 cult rules and their consistency. When his viewpoint changed, that is, he saw the light, he started to enhance the distinctions between cults and magic types with RQ3. I believe that he views Illumination as the 'mythic sense' that allows a hero to attain godhood by direct runic association. Illumination is not needed to be a hero, but it is the natural state for the gods. RU>Arkat was a mad, deranged maniac with an obsession probably before he was RU>Illuminated. So, indeed, he did carry on as he did beforehand : ) Plus, as RU>a note, Arkat was a Dark Side Illuminate (bet I opened a can of worms RU>there...). I don't think ALL Illuminates carry on as they did before hand i RU>life, but quite a lot do. Arkat was obsessively driven to destroy Gbaji, but the only way a human can beat a god is to become one also. All the rest of his life is the quest for power and it's use against Dorastor and Nysalor's followers. He always joined a new cult to learn it's mythic realities and compare them to the things he already knew so that he could gain new powers for his fight. Becoming Arkat Kingtroll was the proof that he had the mythic understanding to finish the task. I don't believe that he could have used chaos to strengthen himself and done the things he did , and the only evil attributed to him was prolonged and bloody war. RU>IMO Illumination should be curbed, limited. It should be made rare and RU>wonderous, even in areas like the Lunar Empire. I think that the chance and RU>appearance of Illumination is unfairly shown by RQ products (how many NPC's RU>were Illuminated in Lords of Terror?). There are far more things you can do RU>to an NPC to make them seem wise/mystical/interesting/powerful than simply RU>make them Illuminated, IMO. It might be possible to have one Illuminate in 5000, that seems to be the game expectation from published adventure material. Identify the population of a region and spread the Illuminates very thinly among them. Many will be Lunar officials or Riddlers wandering the country among entertainers. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:30:44 -0500 From: stancliff@commnections.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Illuminated RU>keith e. smith wrote RU>That's why I believe most, if not all, Orlanthi Tricksers are Illuminated. RU>For example, in the depiction of Sartar's High Council the only person who RU>"respects" the trickster is Gringle, known for his Heroquesting and RU>"outlandish ways." IMO both are illuminated. Tricksters are among the people I consider least likely to be Illuminated, if for no other reason than that they have no respect for anything, even the myths. The Orlanthi Heroquester knew that Trickster had a necessary and totally valid role in myth as a lightbringer, even if they are weasely scum. An Orlanthi rune lord is the only person likely to control a trickster for any length of time and the two might even have been long time friends. The power gamer in my campaign runs an Agimori (the most deadly fighter in the party) who lost a fight and got possessed by a lunar spirit of madness while traveling to Sartar. He was excommunicated by his Daka Fal shaman and expelled from the tribe, so, while possessed, he left the party and joined Eurmal. He now has access to such wonderful spells as Strike, Swallow, Lie, and Hide Fire, though he has some difficulty recovering the spells when used. RU>Further evidence of trickster illumination can be found in the storyline of Cults of Terror. This is a biased and probably invalid interpretation. The biased character in the story describes them as Tricksters (or Entertainers?). It was almost certainly a Donadar sideshow with a Riddler or two among them. Bob Stancliff (Stancliff@commnections.com) (http://commnections.com/upgrades) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V1 #135 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Avalon Hill Games. 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