From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #7 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Friday, January 15 1999 Volume 02 : Number 007 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] extraneous magic points [RQ-RULES] Magic point storage [RQ-RULES] This sorcery malarkey and magic point availability... Re: [RQ-RULES] extraneous magic points Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence Re: [RQ-RULES] Spirit Cults Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:57:54 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] extraneous magic points Looks like a matter of interpretation to me. Personally, I can't see why sorcerers wouldn't deal with spirits - even in Glorantha. Anyone think of an overpowering reason why they wouldn't? Ash -----Original Message----- From: Richard Ohlson [mailto:richo@epix.net] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 6:57 PM To: runequest-rules@MPGN.COM Subject: [RQ-RULES] extraneous magic points For barbarians, getting pow-spirits is very easy. You pop out to the shaman or your priest, he summons a bugger up, you beat it up and stick it in a box. In my campaign, the tradition is that a priest that runs a temple or a shaman is going to go out of his way to make a combined "summon power spirit-bind power spirit" matrix. Typically, they charge 1500-3000 to summon up to three spirits. Now, if the customer takes the first or second spirit, then the deal is over. And if they screw up and get possesed, the shaman will kick the spirit out. (unless, of course, they REALLY screw up and get a 100 pow spirit...) However, it is more difficult for Sorcerers. It is my understanding that Sorcerers don't deal with spirits. So, even if they do get their hands onto a pow-spirit matrix, they really don't know how to fill it. And to be honest, NORMAL sorcerers would find the whole idea of binding a spirit into an object has a horrid abomination. (And yet another reason to hate/fear barbarians.) But, on the other hand, there have been a zillion sorcerers over the years, and they have probably all created one or two MP storage matrixies. That's a lot floating around. Even a typical knight is going to want to have extra magic points. Yes, casting out of personals doesn't affect their spell casting, but it does change their resistance. So, they will want to have something that they can cast their damage resist or damage boost or heal from. Of course, magi can make familiars and tap the life out of the peasants.... Priests have even more options to get magic points. Allied spirits are an obvious example. Also, if they happen to have a 20 Pow sylph stuck in a box, they can mind link with the sylph and suck out the mp's. Heck, they can mind link with friends also. Heh, they can even whack a couple of stinkin' sorcerers and get storage matrixies... I expect that anybody that's willing to cause trouble in glorantha is going to have non-personal magic points available. Just like PC's, bad guys are going to be trying to get that disrupt or demoralize in, they're going to want to have prot or bladesharp or countermagic up, and they're going to want to be able to heal themselves. Of course, the PC's are going to get the stuff when the bad guys are dead... Now, there are a couple of ways to limit the amount of MP's players have. One way is to encourage the costs of conditions on storage matrixies. Stuff like, "only used by the Red Shield Clan" or similar PC excluding stuff. Yes, it's kinda expensive, but if clans constantly raid each other, then perhaps they also send the Issaries out once a year to swap clan stuff. Another way is to have matrixies built into tattoos, which I HIGHLY encourage people to personalize. "only can be used by ME." (To keep people from cutting tattoos off while you're asleep... Another way that I have seen is by adding a stat called "Charisma" Basically, it's how famous or noteworthy you are. Pretty much it can go up the same way power does, (21-stat x5) after doing something important, flashy, etc. The number of spirits you can control equals your Charisma divided by two. However, one of the perks of being a shaman (IMC) is that a shaman's number of spirits equals his Charisma. Rich Ohlson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:49:17 +0000 From: Simon Hibbs Subject: [RQ-RULES] Magic point storage Rich Allen : > So how do you convince the shaman to help you bind a POW >spirit? Surely you don't mean your sorcerer has spent enough time >away from his sorcerous studies to learn how to summon spirits?!?! Why not, it's a perfectly good sorcery spell, so why shouldn't it be part of his sorcery studies? > Hey, like I said, it's all in how you feel the game should be >played. We don't feel that this much power should be in the hands >of any single person, unique evil bad guys excepted, MAYBE. If I'm playing a sorcerer in your game, how are you going to stop me? Apart from anything else, it seems rather tight to let someone play a character with an interesting set of abilities, then cripple their ability to use them through arbitrarily restricting their acces to MPs. > Different stroke for different folks I guess, but we just don't find >walking engines of destruction very fun to play. Or walking engines of anything by the looks of it. None of these restrictions would affect any of the sorcerer characters I have played. They primarily used bound power spirits so the MPME restriction is irrelevent, and none of them ever had a power storage crystal. > I don't allow sorcerers (or priests) to summon spirits with the >Summon(creature) spell. If you allow that, there's really no need >for the Shaman as a player character. er, is there actualy _anything_ you let your sorcerers do? Has anyone actualy ever bothered playing one in your game? Why? I've had quite a lot of experience playing shamans and sorcerers don't even come close to a shamans ability with spirits. The ability to adventure on the spirit plane to find exactly the spirit you want in extremely usefull. The fetch is a real bonus when dealing with spirits, and the visibility spirit spell is great and has no sorcerous equivalent. Shamans beat sorcerers on the spirit front hands down. Once your fetch goes above POW 20 you're realy rocking! > ..........That means you have to learn >a new spell from another sorcerer, something that should be very >expensive to begin with, and nearly impossible if you're looking for >spells that could be used against the teacher at a later date. That's daft. You just go to a church of your flavour of Malkionism. If you are a Wizard of good standing with the church hierarchy then where's the problem? > Oh, and I just read in the Magic rule book that it takes one >point of Binding spell per point of the characteristic of the spirit >being bound. So a POW spirit with 10 POW would require ten >points of Binding Enchantment. That's crap. The binding enchantment requires 1 POW point per each characteristic the spirit has, so power spirits require a 1pt Binding matrix because they have only POW. I'm confused. You seem to have a fairly complete set of mods to the basic rules, without much of a clue as to what the basic rules actualy are. I'd advise you to actualy get a grip of the rules as writ before trying to rewrite them. > Beginning characters, with an average age of 21, will have 6 >plus 1d3 _common_ sorcery spells, with 56 points to spread >among them. As aprentices yes, but as adepts they get 1D3 spells per year (I think). You don't need to put many point into the ritual spells because you can boost them with ceremony. As a side note, I give much higher base chances with sorcery spells than RQ3 and have amalgamated summon, enchant and ceremony into a single skill. Generaly I prefer characters in my games to be more competent than the average in RQ3 because I like to run games with epic themes. This requires the characters be able to stand up to fairly high class opposition. Still, the basic rules are far from broken. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:28:12 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: [RQ-RULES] This sorcery malarkey and magic point availability... Rich he say: Oh, and I just read in the Magic rule book that it takes one point of Binding spell per point of the characteristic of the spirit being bound. So a POW spirit with 10 POW would require ten points of Binding Enchantment. Er, no, It's one point per characteristic. So a power spirit with only POW would cost 1 POW to create an enchantment for, a magic spirit with INT and POW would cost 2 POW to create an enchantment for. Also, sorcerers can learn spells by research - taking 500 hours (I think!) - if they find the spell written down somewhere. I think there was an example of someone doing that in the rule book. How the hell did I end up talking about sorcerers? None of my players have one and they hardly ever turn up as NPCs! Incidentally, having large amounts of magic points is nothing new. Back in the bad old days, Bill Keyes said in "Runemasters" that almost all initiates found adventuring would either have a POW storage crystal or a bound spirit (if their POW was high enough). In RQ II one of the first spells most adventurers learnt (after Heal 2 and an offensive spell) was Spirit Binding so they could get a renewable source of POW and somewhere to stuff a few extra points of battle magic. Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:22:06 GMT From: "Nikk Effingham" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] extraneous magic points > ME." (To keep people from cutting tattoos off while you're asleep... > Another way that I have seen is by adding a stat called "Charisma" > Basically, it's how famous or noteworthy you are. Pretty much it can go > up the same way power does, (21-stat x5) after doing something > important, flashy, etc. The number of spirits you can control equals > your Charisma divided by two. However, one of the perks of being a > shaman (IMC) is that a shaman's number of spirits equals his Charisma. Just a few points of my own: cutting tatoos off to get matrices sounds fine, but how long does a tatoo last on a piece of rotting skin? Sure, you could use pickling or curing techniques (or what have you) to preserve the skin, but surely that wouldn't do it any good. Personally, if you steal a tatoo in my game you get about one weeks useage out of it before it rots so much it becomes unusable, and virtually all techniques to preserve the skin ruin the matrix. I also don't see why sorcerors don't deal with spirits. Doesn't Gods of Glorantha have a picture of a Rokari summoning a spirit of darkness? And this still doesn't solve the problem for Stygian socities where Sorcery is mixed in with Rune Magic and Spirit Magic. Also, Power Spirits being rare or not is not an official line. In the Chaosium House Campaign magic items flowed like water, while in games like Dave Dunhams Seattlite Farmers Campaign, I think the only item they have a single power spirit. It all depends upon campaign flavouring. All IMHO, Nikk Nikk Effingham eng7nje@leeds.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/7556/ "If absolute power corrupts absolutely Where does that leave God?" -- George Daacon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:32:56 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence > > The errata for MultiSpell is in 'Stranger in Prax'. The new effect is to > > reduce the MP cost to that required by the largest spell + 1MP / Multi. > > Basically it takes all of the time of all of the spells but only costs one > > spell's MP's plus the duplication cost. > > What could possibly justify that errata??? It doesn't make any > sense that casting spells at the same time makes all but one of > them all but free. Why change the original rule?? > Rich There are two valid concepts and uses for a skill called Multi-Spell. The first would be to cast a number of spells in the same time as a single spell with the MP cost being the total. The second would be to cast a number of spells with the same MP cost as a single spell with the time cost being the total. The original rule was closer to the first and the errata rule change was closer to the second. Both rules are valid ways of looking at Multi-Spell and both probably deserve to exist. The reason for the change is probably that with further playtesting it was discovered how grossly MP expensive ALL sorcery is, especially for useful intensities and durations, so they changed the nature of Multi-Spell to reduce this MP penalty for those who know Multi-Spell. If you want a rationalization for story telling purposes, then say that it is the nature of sorcery for all manipulations to form an energy amplification matrix to which a one point spell is presented. The one point spell passes through the amplification matrix and exits as the final spell effect. Multi-spell is the advanced skill of passing several one point spells through the same amplification matrix before it collapses. Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:05:27 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Spirit Cults dabick@excite.com wrote: > > Is there an official or unofficial write up on spirit cults roles on the > internet, and if so where? Sandy Petersen's Shaman rules (finally available to the general public, it would seem) can be found at http://www.hccweb.demon.co.uk/glorantha/sandy.htm - at the tail end of which is a section of rules for Spirit Cults. Also available are his Mysticism rules, which I'd only seen in their most embryotic form several years ago. Once again, Herr Petersen has come thru for us. :) - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:22:18 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence OK Rich, I have looked at the other messages and they have already responded to most of the points I would have made, so I will limit my comment. > > need one 10 Pow storage crystal and you cast one or two spells a day. It > > is easy to pay a few peasants to put a couple of MP's each into your > > crystal. > > We rule that MP's stored in a crystal (or any other magic point > matrix item) can only be used by the individual that put them there, > and only one person's MP's can be in an MPMatrix at a time. Both of these are unjustified by the rules... MP's are MP's. They all come from the fertile source and recycle back to it. > If you find a storage crystal (something that would never happen in > my game, you must earn these babies), you must attune yourself > to the crystal in order to be able to use it. In all of the published modules, spell matrices and MP storage crystals are the most common magic items in the game. I will agree that the referee has to control the rate of magic proliferation, but you are perverting the game just to prevent players from having magic. Officially, attuning is only required for 'Living crystal', the ones with all of the unusual powers, and are limited to one per person (spirit). Storage crystals are 'dead' and are not limited in number possessed, nor is attuning needed. > ... The process of attuning > (a simple POW roll against the potential storage of the crystal) > empties it of any stored MP's it may have had. This is no big deal, it only retards use of the item by about a day. The rules of Enchantment clearly state that they all apply to all classes of magic, only the spells used to cast the enchantments changes. A spirit magician spends 3 free Int to learn Binding Enchant, a divine follower spends one POW to learn it, but a sorcerer only has to spend 1 free int. The rules themselves consider it easier for sorcerers to bind, dominate, and use spirits, it is only a misconception or prejudice on your part that keeps you from realizing this. Each class of magic exists to help the members of their respective cultures. Each is capable of standing alone without the existence of the other two. Therefore, each must be able to do those tasks that will give their members access to magical power without relying on the other classes of magic. This must include enchants and the use of special spirits. Every person in Glorantha wants to walk the hero paths, but it not possible to reach them without a deep understanding and control of magic and high skills at survival. They are intended to be too dangerous for common adventurers to overcome, so access to them are restricted to those who are reaching mastery in their skills and arts. While it still may be possible to play your game, and even get some enjoyment out of it, several of us tend to agree that you have crippled magic, and especially sorcery, taking much of the mystery and fun from the game. > Different stroke for different folks I guess, but we just don't find > walking engines of destruction very fun to play. Every response you write shows how long it has been since you read the rules to learn what they really said. Several of us post alternate rules here, but we do it with full knowledge of what the rules actually say, and we explain why we think there is a reason to change them. You have not been here many months yet, so I would suggest that you go back to the beginning of this archive and read the posts for the first year to see what we have already discussed regarding bindings, spirits, and their use. Then read everything in the magic book (except the spell descriptions, which you have probably read more recently), so that you will see where your house rules have drifted from RQ, and you might understand the intended framework for the system. RuneQuest was intended, as a game, to take a young adult up to the level of competent skill master or Rune Level. This process takes three to six game years, depending on the style of the referee and the pace of the game, unless the players avoid adventure and learning. There was always the promise of a Hero game to take these characters to advanced Rune Level and Hero status. That game might be just around the corner, but it is so late in coming that the concept of it augmenting RQ has been dropped in favor of it standing on it's own. The RQ game does not hold up too well as the characters advance far into Rune Level and 100%+ skills, although it stays playable for quite a while. The most common problem is that it takes many normal humans to overcome one of these budding heroes, but isn't that the nature of a Hero? They are expected to outfight 10 or 100 men, and frankly, it takes a lot of magic to do that, since skill alone is not sufficient. The main thing about playing, or running for, 'walking engines of destruction' is that they should be so busy with their worldly obligations, that they will only make time for threats as tough as they are. Let the players have and enjoy magic and all it can accomplish, then when they get tough, induct them into a temple and take 90% of their time doing mundane tasks, and let them out occasionally for something special. Then change the focus of the campaign to run for less experienced characters, make NPC's into PC's, or let them start new PC's to experience the variety of Glorantha. Players will permit this, and even embrace it, when they learn how broad and deep Glorantha truly is compared to your average D&D world. I have often had my players running up to four characters in two or three different sub-plots, and while they don't like running multiple characters at the same time, they have had no problem splitting them up to go on different adventures. Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #7 *********************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.