From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #9 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Monday, January 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 009 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers [RQ-RULES] Charisma [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence [RQ-RULES] Correction Re: [RQ-RULES] The Blood of the Gods Re: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers RE: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers RE: [RQ-RULES] The Blood of the Gods [RQ-RULES] Sorcerers and Spirits [RQ-RULES] Sorcerers and spirits RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:04:05 -0500 From: Richard Ohlson Subject: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers First, I want to point out that there are multiple Rich's on this digest now. I'm the one that thought that Sorcerers didn't use spirits. I guess the reason I have allways thought this is because they don't learn their spells from spirits. If sorcerers use spirits a lot also, is there any good reason why sorcerers don't commonly have Heal 2 or Heal 4? I mean, lets be honest, there are quite a few spirit magic spells that beat the heck out of sorcery spells. Of course, you have to deal with the Free Int issue, but there are also matrixies. Maybe it's just a matter that 95% of the spirits stronger than 2 or 3 are actually cult spirits or pets of Shaman. Who knows? Maybe somebody else has a better idea. Oh, and as an act of realism (and blatant game balancing) we play that a matrix needs one point of power per stat, but it can only hold up to 20 points of that stat. Therefore, to hold a 35 POW Pow spirit, you need a 2point matrix. Now, in some games I've played in (but not the one I run) it's been ruled that a two point matrix is a two point matrix, not specifically an INT spirit matrix or a MAGIC spirit matrix. Also, I've seen it played that an elemental matrix will hold any elemental, though I still play that if you want a sylph matrix, you make a sylph matrix, and if you want a salamander matrix, you make a salamander matrix, and they are not interchangeable. (I'm not saying one is better or worse, just that there are different ways of playing.) Rich Ohlson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:16:10 -0500 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] Charisma > Another way that I have seen is by adding a stat called "Charisma" Basically, it's how famous or noteworthy you are. Pretty much it can go up the same way power does, (21-stat x5) after doing something important, flashy, etc. The number of spirits you can control equals your Charisma divided by two. This was more or less the RQ2 rule. Charisma was rolled up on 3D6 like any other stat, had roughly the effect on skills APP does now. Characters could control CHA/3 spirits. Increases were at GM discretion, or one point per 25% skill in orate. Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:16:13 -0500 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence In my (Gloranthan) campaign, sorcerors are perfectly capable of summoning any spirit they like. The reason they don't do it often is the risk of fumbling. Even a successful summmoning has a 10% chance of getting something more powerful than you were expecting. A fumbled summons can produce ANYTHING - - even if you limit yourself to the spirit plane encounter tables, there are many nasty creatures that can appear, each requiring a different Dominate spell to control. I played a strong sorceror in another GM's campaign, and he never learned any summoning skill at all. He was a Byzantine, and relied on his bargaining skills and political connections to get others to take the risks for him. I created my nastiest villain by working out what resources a sorceror needed to carry out summonings reliably and repeatedly, with provision for any of the things that could go wrong. He even managed to bind a demon that was totally immune to magic - the players defeated him by releasing it, then there was a whole scenario arc devoted to how he'd managed to bind it in the first place. Andrew Barton *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:18:32 -0500 From: Richard Ohlson Subject: [RQ-RULES] Correction One quick note that I forgot to put in that last message: Magic Point Storage Crystals are dead, burned out crystals: The crystalized blood of gods. Magic Point Storage Matrixies are items created by a sorcery ritual. The items work exactly the same, except that you can actually make one of them. The reason (I believe) that a MPSM was changed to 1-10 mps (or 2-7 or whatever people wanna use) is because compared to a POW spirit they were kind of worthless. One advantage to MPSM's though, is that they are fairly easy to combine with other magic items. For instance, it's easier to latch a MPSM to a familiar or a magic spirit or a spell matrix. Personally, I play that it takes a point of power to "link" a power spirit to another spirit, and that's the only thing that can use the power from it. But anybody that touches a matrix can use it. And, as I said before, I limit the number of spirits that anybody can have, so people who are "maxed out" can still get some more magic points by using MPSMs. Rich Ohlson *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:19:30 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] The Blood of the Gods > MPME can certainly be used for this purpose,, but the crystals are > generally seen as an almost "mineable" resource. I realize from a > previous post that you don't have the modules, which tells me that > you've missed the "in game" discoveries of veins of GodsBlood crystals in > at least one of them (Borderlands?). While I am unlikely to ever run the > mods "as writ", they do keep me supplied with ideas and examples of how > things are done. I don't completely ignore RQ books that aren't part of the Deluxe set; I bought River of Cradles for the expanded descriptions of some of the major cults, the Agamori write-up, and a really nice RPG city. I also have the Gods of Gloranth, again for the cults, and Eldar Secrets, for the expansion of the player races. I tend not to pick up the smaller publications though, like Apple Lane, Shadows on the Borderland, etc. A question: is there some kind of "index" on the web that lists rules expansions/updates/errata in each of the published suppliments and modules for RQ3? This would help myself, and probably others, in deciding what needs to be purchased in order to have the major errata, etc. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:40:52 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers Hi Rich! > First, I want to point out that there are multiple Rich's on this digest > now. I'm the one that thought that Sorcerers didn't use spirits. Thanks for the help, I knew I wasn't the only one!!! > points of that stat. Therefore, to hold a 35 POW Pow spirit, you need a > > Rich Ohlson OK, maybe I've missed some other bit of errata in some obscure published module, so I welcome any correction. This isn't directed at Rich, in particular, either. We've had other examples of high POW spirits, one even went as high as 100! That out of the way, according to the Magic Book 90% of summoned POW spirits will have 2d6+3 POW. That give a range of 5 to 15 POW. This is from the table on page 54 of my book. This is also the range given in the Creatures Book for POW Spirits. The Magic Book goes on to say that the other 10% of the time, larger spirits may be encountered, and that this is the equivilent of meeting nobles and kings of the spirit world. So, what I picture happening is a sorcerer casts summon POW spirit, rolls a d% to see if he gets anything special. If not, the spirit has 5-15 POW, end of story. If he rolls under the 10%, he gets lots more than he expected (to paraphrase the book). I can even imagine that a really powerful spirit will show up, when forcefully summoned, with other powerful spirits in tow as retinue and/or body guard. I can find nothing that says a summoned spirit must show up alone and defenseless other than with it's own abilities, but again, if I've missed something, please let me know! Oh, and another thing mentioned in the summoning ritual (thanks to Mr. Stancliff for asking me to re-read the rules more carefully) says that a sorcerer MUST use a number of extra MP in the summoning ritual equal to or exceeding the MP of the summoned creature or the spell fails automatically. Now then, since POW=MP, does the POW spirit have MP equal to it's POW? According the the Creature Book, it DOES have MP, so we are back to the catch-22 of wanting to create a binding for more MP, but needing more MP to create the binding. And no RQ sorcerer I have ever heard of or read about would pump an extra 100 MP into the summon spell on the off chance a 100 POW spirit is summoned, or would even be capable of doing so. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:57:33 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers Rich (the sorcery / spirit one) he say: If sorcerers use spirits a lot also, is there any good reason why sorcerers don't commonly have Heal 2 or Heal 4? The first NPC sorcerer ever published knew heal 1 (In "Monster Colostromy" the amazing start to RQ III supplements: Didn't stand a chance did it?) there's no prescription in the rules for this happening. ...we play that a matrix needs one point of power per stat, but it can only hold up to 20 points of that stat. Therefore, to hold a 35 POW Pow spirit, you need a 2point matrix. There are more variations on this than I have pairs of undies. We currently use 1 POW per 10 attribute points. It's quite a laugh as a referee watching an Adventurer trying to stuff an oversized elemental into a binding enchantment too small for it. Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:57:33 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] The Blood of the Gods Rich (the other one) wanted to know about errata for the RQ rules. The errata used to be on AH's web site and available by post. Unfortunately I doubt they are available anymore - either that or you end up wrestling an action man for 'em. Someone might have a copy lurking around. Most people read it, had already patched most of the problems with house rules and promptly binned it. However, If I can find an electronic copy I'll email it to you. Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:23:31 +0000 From: Simon Hibbs Subject: [RQ-RULES] Sorcerers and Spirits Pete Nash : >I always imagine what I'd do if a sorcerer tried to summon and bind >spirits in a game I ran. Some very big spirits would come a teach the >sorcerer a terminal lesson. Or even rip their spirit out and use it as a >heroplane personal magic item... ;-) Well, ok, but for a sorcerer to be able to do that he must have learnt, and spent skill point on building up his summon, dominate and bind spells for those spirits. Is it realy fair to tell a player that he's just wasted half his character generation points on abilities you're arbitrarily taking away from him? If there was some arbitrary prejudice in the way magic works and spirits behave that works against sorcerers, what is the justification for it and how come the sorcerers never noticed? >Your Glorantha may vary. er, yes. > .....If he needs lots of magic points then he'd >create storage devices to hold _his_ own mps. Not enslave some other >'living?' source to supply them for him. IMO the concept is alien to >him. (*) What about henotheist or stygian sorcerers, who's church may have their own cult spirits and related powers? Not all sorcerers are purist monotheists. >(*) Isn't this what the god learners were starting to do just before >Glorantha crushed them? Sorcerers might have learned their lesson by >now... The God Learners weren't crushed for using routine sorcery spells that have been around since the dawn of time. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:15:17 +0000 From: Simon Hibbs Subject: [RQ-RULES] Sorcerers and spirits Rich Allen : > Well, I'm apparantly in the minority here, but I LIKE the fact >that sorcery is MP expensive. That alone serves to put logical >limits on the power of individuals. That's fine, I agree completely. Pound for pound, sorcerers need many more magic points to be effective than theists or shamans do. The problem is that sorcerers _must_ have at least some external source of magic points in order to be even marginaly usefull or effective, even as starting characters. Ok, you can have a familiar, but their main use is for secondary free INT. If you're going to make it arnbitrarily more difficult for sorcerers to get external storage devices then you're effectively blocking sorcerer characters from becoming worth playing. If the point of this is that you don't want sorcerers to be a viable option for a PC, then why not just say so? > And while we're on the subject, do any of you allow non- >sorcerers (that is, not apprentices or adepts) the use of the >sorcerer magic skills (Intensity, Duration, Range and Multispell)? No. As you say, these can only be learned by specialists. IMHO no reputable sorcerer will tech this secret, and possibly holy knowledge to just anybody. > OK, my fault, I mis-read that bit. IMHO though, this makes the >binding much more favourable than MPME, and thus much less >rare. I need to study up on it more, obviously, but if it costs so >much less to bind a POW spirit than it does to make a POS >storage crystal, why would you make the crystal? Power spirit binding enchantments are more efficient in POW, but for a sorcerer they are much more difficult to make. To make an MPME you only need to know the enchant spell and Enchant skill. To make a Power spirit binding enchantment and put a spirit in it you need to know : The binding enchantment spell, the Enchant skill, The Summon Power Spirit spell/skill, the Dominate Power Spirit spell/skill. In other words you need to learn three times as many skills, which is an awfull lot of skill points. >> Both of these are unjustified by the rules... MP's are MP's. They all >> come from the fertile source and recycle back to it. > Is your statement justified by the rules? In my aapparently >limited knowledge of the rules, I can't seem to find this stated >anywhere. The rules do not specify that the matrix must be powered by the same character, so making such a distinction is unjustified unless you are explicitly making a change to the rules for your own game. >> In all of the published modules, spell matrices and MP storage >>crystals are the most common magic items in the game. >This is a personal gripe on my part, I admit, but IMO modules don't >provide errata to games rules. << Irrelevent points about errata deleted>> What has the general content of scenarios got to do with errata? > In response to the last part of the above statement, we (and >everywhere I use "we" in my posts I mean me AND my players) >enjoy the fact that magic, and especially sorcerery, in rare in it's >more powerful forms, and even bands of glory seeking adventurers >will whisper in awe when they come into contact with a rune-level >sorcerer. WE LIKE IT THAT WAY!!!! That's fine, and nobody has said you should run your games any other way. However you have repeatedly implied that running games according to the rules, or at a higher power level is either impossible or silly. I'm afraid you're he one that's making sweeping and prejudiced statements. Statements which are not based on experience, as you freely admit yourself you have only played RQ at very low power levels. >> Every response you write shows how long it has been since you read >>the rules to learn what they really said. >Once again, you attack me personally, unnecessarily! That's not a personal attack, merely a statelemnt of fact. Don't you thing it's reasonable to expect someone proposing rules changes to know what the orriginal rules are? > Apparently though, despite the fact that we have played RQ3 >this way for the better part of three years, and we have all enjoyed >it emmensily, we are doing it wrong, so we can't be having any fun. I and I'm sure many other people here have played low level characters generated as per the book or at very low power levels. That's fine, nothing wrong with it. Nobody on this list has said you shoudln't, or criticized this style of play. On the other hand, you've made repeated sly comments about such as : > You obviously like to play in a world where every fifth person >you meet could level a small village before lunch. We don't. Nuff >said. and : > Different stroke for different folks I guess, but we just don't find >walking engines of destruction very fun to play. Again, you're making a clear criticism of a style of play which you say yourself you have no experience of playing. Most of my games nowadays have fairly powerfull characters, but they tend to be very political games. Combat adds dramatic spice, but is hardly a regular activity. For your informatin none of the characters in a game of mine has ever leveled a village, or walked around destroying things. By and large they've got much better things to do with their time and I resent your unjustified and spurious aspersions. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #9 *********************************** *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.