From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #17 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Monday, January 25 1999 Volume 02 : Number 017 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] Sorceror familiars Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #7 Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #7 Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence Re: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers Re: [RQ-RULES] Sorcerery rules Re: [RQ-RULES] Errata armor rules Re: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence Re: [RQ-RULES] Sorcerery rules RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:06:45 +0000 From: Simon Hibbs Subject: [RQ-RULES] Sorceror familiars Andrew Barton comes up with some good reasons for not sacrificing INT to get a familiar : >(1) if you're playing the rules as written, only adept sorcerors >are taught how to create familiars. There is nothing in the rules that says a player can't start the game with an Adept sorcerer character, although the character generation method the GM uses makes a big difference. >(2) Each point of free INT allows you to double the duration >or range of your spells. In any contest between sorcerors, >the one with the higher free INT has a great advantage. >Giving up a point of INT becomes a huge cost as soon as all >your characteristic INT is free (which should be an early >objective for all sorcerors). That's true, but the extra Free INT you get for storing spells in a familiar frees up your own Free INT and gives yoiu more available spells which gives you more tactical options and general magical flexinbility. In later life, the lower Free INT can be ameliorated by using spell matrices, which effectively boosts the points of the spell without requiring as much Free INT. >(3) Unless you have high levels of Enchant skill, there's a >substantial risk of failure. My interpretation is that any failure >costs you the characteristic points without reward, though >now I come to check the spell wording it doesn't say so >explicitly. You can use Ceremony to increase your chances with the Enchant skill roll so that it's maxed out, dramaticaly reducing the risks. >(4) Later in their careers, sorcerors are more likely to be >able to arrange to make familiars from incomplete >characters that lack other stats, but not INT. That's a good option, but many such creatures are wkward to find or capture. It's largely down to the GM and the style of campaign. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:08:15 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #7 > Pete wrote: > My memory is terrible, but wasn't there quite a few years ago some > discussion about this on one of the digests. Did Sandy once post the > following sort of idea... > Shaman beats Sorcerer, Sorcerer beats Theist, Theist beats Shaman. I disagree in general and in specific. Level of preparation is critical, and which deity is involved matters a lot since it is hard to push Humakt around, even with sorcery or shamanic spirits. My opinion is that everyone beats sorcery unless the wizard is hero level. > Although the sorcerer didn't have as much raw power as a shaman, he had > far more control over the world using his magic. If he wanted to > manipulate his surroundings then he'd use his personal power, because > that's the way he thinks. If he needs lots of magic points then he'd > create storage devices to hold _his_ own mps. Not enslave some other > 'living?' source to supply them for him. IMO the concept is alien to > him. (*) The point was that the sorcerer considers spirits to be tool and things, not 'living'. Therefore it is an easy extension to the step of making powered devices (powered by spirits). He knows he needs recharging batteries for Mana so he will take a MP crystal and attach a POW spirit to recharge it. It is true that sorcerers have to be more careful of which spirits they mess with since they have no way to overcome possession and no spirit block to hold extra large spirits at bay. > Again I think I can recall some balance of power scenarios where the > sorcerers come out of the west to stomp over the barbarians, but are > then utterly quashed when the shamans of pent or prax release their > spirit hoards at them. I have read most of the material, but don't remember this. Can you site a source? > Its just a Gloranthan idea to balance out each of the philosophies of magic. I think you mean a rules idea to balance the forms of magic. Glorantha might not care. > Otherwise a sorcerer can very quickly become immensly powerful. Anytime PC's learn to create magic items, they will become immensely powerful, it is just as true with spirit magic, and only restricted under divine magic because the PC has to become an acolyte first. > Unfortunately IMO this method to create awesome sorcerers by allowing > them to use, summon and control spirits has tempted the authors of some > scenarios. Now its in writing the method has become canon. Their arguments make sense. > I always imagine what I'd do if a sorcerer tried to summon and bind > spirits in a game I ran. Some very big spirits would come a teach the > sorcerer a terminal lesson. Or even rip their spirit out and use it as a > heroplane personal magic item... ;-) This is game bigotry. It will lose you players and eventually kill your game. > (*) Isn't this what the god learners were starting to do just before > Glorantha crushed them? Sorcerers might have learned their lesson by > now... No, it isn't!! The Jrusteli learned that you didn't have to beat a god to get the use of their power. By beating them in knowledge games they could win bets of magical power with no permanent personal risk. Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:20:37 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence > And while we're on the subject, do any of you allow non- > sorcerers (that is, not apprentices or adepts) the use of the > sorcerer magic skills (Intensity, Duration, Range and Multispell)? No, I don't. Actually, any student can learn Intensity, but not the others. An apprentice can learn Duration and Range, but only an adept (with a familiar, I presume) can learn MultiSpell. > IMC, any person wishing to learn these skills must apprentice > himself to a sorcerer, thus incruing all of the penalties associated > with being a sorcerer. The rules do not prohibit the learning of all three forms of magic... as long as the person does not become a Rune Level. The divine and spirit forms of magic have a clear 'rite of passage' by becoming an acolyte (or priest), or a shaman. For the sorcerer, the 'rite' must be the binding of a familiar (there is that spirit binding again, and a 'living' one at that), at this point the apprentice claims his rights and status as an Adept. It is conceivable for an apprentice with Intensity, Duration, and Range to run away to a theistic land and join a cult, learning divine spells and battle magic (spirit magic). Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:17:09 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #7 >It is true that sorcerers have to be more careful of which spirits they >mess with since they have no way to overcome possession and no >spirit block to hold extra large spirits at bay. I'm not so sure. How about Drain to get the spirit down to 0 MPs? That might do the trick, or maybe just the right Dominate spell if it's a common type of spirit. Sandy's rules has a Banish spell as well. philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:24:10 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence > Not to mention the fact > that the point of POW sacrificed to the teacher, or the teacher's > familiar, creates a bond that makes it pretty much imposible for the > apprentice to sneak out for a quick adventure. The rules specifically state that it allows the mage to call to the apprentice, no matter how far away. It doesn't provide any information regarding location, or intentions, and it doesn't force obedience. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:27:39 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence > OK, my fault, I mis-read that bit. IMHO though, this makes the > binding much more favourable than MPME, and thus much less > rare. I need to study up on it more, obviously, but if it costs so > much less to bind a POW spirit than it does to make a POS > storage crystal, why would you make the crystal? Why would you make a MPME? Because it is the only spell you know and you can't afford the others, or because you are afraid of possession. If you allow the errata change, or even a 1d6 varient, the MPME is not too bad. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:00:26 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers > Rich Allen > carefully) says that a sorcerer MUST use a number of extra MP in > the summoning ritual equal to or exceeding the MP of the > summoned creature or the spell fails automatically. Now then, > since POW=MP, does the POW spirit have MP equal to it's POW? > According the the Creature Book, it DOES have MP, so we are > back to the catch-22 of wanting to create a binding for more MP, > but needing more MP to create the binding. And no RQ sorcerer I > have ever heard of or read about would pump an extra 100 MP into > the summon spell on the off chance a 100 POW spirit is > summoned, or would even be capable of doing so. You have read correctly. The MP's a summoner puts into the ritual is to determine the size of the 'gate'. No spirit larger than this amount can be forced in by the summon. This protects the summoner from getting something too big for his MP's to defeat. It is also recommended that the summoner will have some spirit protection cast on him before the spirit arrives and can act. The problem is that this rule does not apply to fumbles and the 10% chance for a behemoth. In both cases the spirit is an enemy that sensed the summon and opened the gate from the other side to attack. Thus 100 MP's in the ritual is not needed or desired. A prepared summoner should have enough defense to fight a 15 to 20 POW spirit long enough to run away or even win. In the case of the huge spirit, groveling is recommended only if running is not possible. Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:03:15 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Sorcerery rules > Rich Allen > assuming the sorcerer is only storing knowledge of spells in his > familiar, he still only has a maximum of 18 Free INT to use in > casting spells. If you don't use the Free INT limitation, then we're > not talking about the same game, so that arguement doesn't apply. > The only possible way to accomplish this would be to have an > item (or items) enchanted with these spells at high levels of > intensity, each of which requires sacrificing lots of POW to produce. Yes, with the Free INT rules it is hard to manipulate more than about 15. Intensity 5 matrices would be the minimum needed although Intensity 10 is certainly possibly. The smaller ones could be made by players, but the others would be heirlooms of a large temple or sorcery school, made by aged magi who are ready to retire (or near death). These would never leave the building without strong escort, and then due to war or calamity, but any advanced student could use the matrices to the limits of his ability. Still, a maximum Intensity spell is pretty worthless without extended MP sources to cast them all with. A smart opponent simply runs away for 10 minutes. Remember, it takes Duration 10 to last a week... low Intensities are the rule. Also notice that elves have heightened POW limits and high INT, if one learned sorcery he would be quite a terror to 'normal' humans, and could exceed these examples by a few more points. Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:12:49 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Errata armor rules > Jim Bickmeyer wrote: > The interior soft armor adds its normal AP to the total armor at TWICE > normal ENC cost. > To me that read that it is possible to place chain male under plate now. It > is even possible to layer light leather, chain and plate for a total of 16 > AP. In theory, yes... the problem is that the encumbrance cost will have you entering the battle field already tired and your spell% will be lower than your INT. If you don't want to cast any spells this is livable, but you need a good Endurance spell and probably Strength and Vigor also. Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:33:45 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Stinkin Sorcerers > Richard Ohlson wrote: > > I guess the reason I have allways thought this is because they don't > > learn their spells from spirits. If sorcerers use spirits a lot also, > > is there any good reason why sorcerers don't commonly have Heal 2 or > > Heal 4? I mean, lets be honest, there are quite a few spirit magic > > spells that beat the heck out of sorcery spells. Of course, you have to > > deal with the Free Int issue, but there are also matrixies. A sorcerer wouldn't learn variable spirit magic because he knows that he can manipulate his 1pt spell as high as his talent allows. There might be some value in learning 1pt spirit spells or in binding spell spirits to cast variable spells, but the intense investment in finding and learning the Dominate spell for a new spirit type would be a hindrance. Add to that the inability to know what spell spirit will show up and how large it will be (unless he can find some true names to summon with, not easy in a sorcerous culture). Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu) http://commnections.com/upgrades *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:27:17 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Hold vs. Presence > > Not to mention the fact > > that the point of POW sacrificed to the teacher, or the teacher's > > familiar, creates a bond that makes it pretty much imposible for the > > apprentice to sneak out for a quick adventure. ^^^^^^^^^^^ > The rules specifically state that it allows the mage to call to the > apprentice, no matter how far away. It doesn't provide any information > regarding location, or intentions, and it doesn't force obedience. My intention of the above paragraph goes something like this: The master tells the apprentice he has to spend the next week cleaning out the tower, weeding the garden, and studying the Intensity skill, with no breaks and no leaving the tower, while the master is away. The apprentice wants to go on an adventure with his buddies, but knows that if he does, his master can locate him via the bond and punish him if he has disobeyed, and can even, I imagine, break off the apprenticeship. And yes, the rules do say that via the bond, the master's familiar, and the master, can find teh apprentice wherever his is. "..able to find or issue a gentle call.." In my opinion, apprentices, acolytes, and assistant shamans are very limited in their possible role as adventurers, as compared to most of the other "occupations" listed in the previous experience rules. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:31:35 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Sorcerery rules > Still, a maximum Intensity spell is pretty worthless without extended MP > sources to cast them all with. A smart opponent simply runs away for 10 > minutes. Remember, it takes Duration 10 to last a week... low Intensities > are the rule. My point exactly! Thanks! I was just trying to get my brain around that 20 DB, 20 DR, 20 SR walking sorcerer of death and it wasn't happening. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #17 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.