From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #46 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Friday, March 5 1999 Volume 02 : Number 046 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets Re: [RQ-RULES] recording sorcery [RQ-RULES] knowledge of the magic, but not the skill to cast RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Re: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Re: [RQ-RULES] spell books [RQ-RULES] DMD - Brandobaris for RQ/Greyhawk RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks RE: [RQ-RULES] spell books RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:07:24 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Paul Reilly's sorcery system meets > What most of us have disliked is that the vessel was > described as adding to the spell defense and spirit combat > (defense?) just like a fetch. This is too much like a > shaman. No problem, I didn't like that rule either. > I am also bothered by the boosting of manipulation, since > this makes 20 to 30 points of manipulation possible in just > a couple of game years after making the vessel. The copy of Reilly's sorcerey rules that I have does not allow the POW in a Vessel to be used to augment spell manipulation. I agree, that is a bad idea, and it won't be introduced in my version of the rules. > Leaving manipulation tied to free Int had it's problems, > but tying it to the spell skill and manipulation skills of > the caster works very well. After many years of training, > a wizard might be able to manipulate 20 to 25 points this > way, but the practical limit is around 20, which is > important for game balance. This is a new house rule in our games, and has already been added into my version of sorcery. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:49:24 -0500 From: "Jim Bickmeyer" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] recording sorcery Robert McArthur wrote: >Let's take lock picking: if you're at 20% and you have time and materials, you may be actually able to work at, say, %45. But when under pressure you're at most at 20%. For magic, that is what I use ceremony for. It is possible to come up with a skill that works for more mundane skills. However, I think it is best, for the mundane skills, I just give a percent that I think is far for that skill, time used, and situation. Jim Bickmeyer *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Brad Furst Subject: [RQ-RULES] knowledge of the magic, but not the skill to cast 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. :-) At 06:04 PM 3/4/99 -0500, Bob Stancliff wrote: > Sorcery spells are very similar to spirit spells: they >take one free INT to have in mind, take one magic point per >intensity (or manipulation), can be voluntarily forgotten. >The big difference is that they give knowledge of the >magic, but do not include the skill to cast them. > The sorcery skill is needed to cast a sorcery spell. It >is independent of the spell and is just like any other >skill, except that it cannot be researched. > The time given to learning a spell and putting it in mind >teach a small initial sorcery skill% to cast it. This >skill gets better by successfully casting the spell. > > A sorcerer who has mastered the Damage Boost skill could >teach the spell to his familiar and then forget the spell. >He now has no knowledge of the spell magic in his mind, but >he can use the spell knowledge of his familiar to cast the >spell using his own spell skill. The familiar will have >it's own spell skill at casting the spell that is different >from the sorcerer's. > One day the familiar gets kill and even though the >sorcerer has a mastery at casting the spell, he cannot do >so until he regains the spell knowledge. He may do this by >relearning the spell and putting it into his mind, or he >may go to a friend and buy a spell matrix for the spell so >that he can use the spell knowledge stored in the matrix. >Now he can cast the spell at his normal skill. >Bob Stancliff Rich, I think Bob is truly correct in this. Brad Furst esoteric@teleport.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:44:00 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Dat's the big hole in the original rules: There is no ruling on how long it takes to relearn a spell. All it mentions is "learning new spells." Ash - -----Original Message----- From: Rich Allen [mailto:rico@mindspring.com] Sent: 04 March 1999 23:04 To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks > This is clearly a mistake in understanding the difference > between sorcery spell and sorcery skill. I grant you that we may interpreting the rules wrong, but where in the rules does it distinguish between a spell and the skill in that spell? > Sorcery spells are very similar to spirit spells: they > take one free INT to have in mind, take one magic point per > intensity (or manipulation), can be voluntarily forgotten. > The big difference is that they give knowledge of the > magic, but do not include the skill to cast them. > The sorcery skill is needed to cast a sorcery spell. It > is independent of the spell and is just like any other > skill, except that it cannot be researched. I can't find any mention of this in the rules. In fact, the sorcery section of the Magic Book constantly uses "sorcery spell" and "spell skill" interchangeably. I'm not saying your interpretation of the rules is wrong, I just want to find out if it is the right way to interpret what's in the rule book. > The time given to learning a spell and putting it in mind > teach a small initial sorcery skill% to cast it. This > skill gets better by successfully casting the spell. Does this mean that if a sorcerer forgets a spell he has 90% chance of casting, and then at a later time decides to re-learn it, it would take just as long to study as if he was encountering the spell for the first time? How does that make sense? Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:21:58 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks > Dat's the big hole in the original rules: There is no ruling on how long it > takes to relearn a spell. All it mentions is "learning new spells." > Ash It works perfectly fine to say that learning a spell takes the same amount of time every time you have to do so. This isn't a mistake in the rules, just the way it is. You could give a reduced time for relearning, but it isn't needed. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:41:53 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] spell books > I grant you that we may interpreting the rules wrong, but where in the rules > does it distinguish between a spell and the skill in that spell? Every time they say sorcery skill instead of sorcery spell, or visa-versa. > I can't find any mention of this in the rules. In fact, the sorcery > section of the Magic Book constantly uses "sorcery spell" and "spell skill" > interchangeably. I'm not saying your interpretation of the rules is wrong, > I just want to find out if it is the right way to interpret what's in the > rule book. I submit that if you read the intro to the magic book, and the sorcery rules, with the expectation that these are Not interchangeable then you will get a different understanding of what the rules say. I believe that it is your preconception that keeps you from seeing what several of us see... your assumptions bias your interpretation. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:48:40 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] DMD - Brandobaris for RQ/Greyhawk (Got Scarlet Brotherhood last night. Love it so far. But it adds 2 new pantheons to the mix... ) Gods of the Hobniz BRANDOBARIS Runes: Luck, Illusion, Motion Brandobaris is the hobniz deity of stealth, trickery, and misadventure. Cult in the World In the many legends surrounding Brandobaris, one thing is clear: he lives for adventure. Whether it is stealing the truncheon of the Celbit King, or leading a band of ogres into the lair of a waiting bronze dragon, he's always on the move. Brandobaris' cult observes the 4th of each Festival as holy, though they have no High Holy Day. Temples to this deity are unknown, and even shrines are uncommon due to the eternally roving nature of his priesthood. Ceremonial garb for priests includes whatever the priest in question commonly wears, with the addition of a feathered cap and a necklace of coins or gemstones. Lay Membership Requirements: Brandobaris is worshipped by many hobniz who have taken up the adventuring lifestyle, especially those with a love for "stealthy" activities. Skills taught by the cult include Climb, Dodge, Jump, Leap, Tumble, Fast Talk, Sing, Speak Languages, Storytelling, Evaluate, various Lores (primarily racial and World), Conceal, Devise, Sleight, Listen, Search, Hide, Sneak, Ceremony, and Dagger attack. Initiate Membership Requirements: Standard. Officially known as Knaves (but unofficially called by many worse titles), Brandobaris' initiates typically operate either in small bands led by a Hand, or seek risks among companions of their own choice. Spirit Magic: Befuddle, Coordination, Countermagic, Glue, Hotfoot, and Shimmer. Priesthood Requirements: Standard. Known as Hands ('Sticky Hands' to some wags), Brandobaris' priesthood is expected to stay in touch (as much as possible) with the followers of their god who need them. While many lead regular groups of Knaves on a day to day basis, most simply wander from place to place, setting up temporary shrines anyplace they expect to remain for a while. Virtues for this cult include Curious, Indulgent, Joyous, and Reckless. Common Divine Magic: all. Special Divine Magic: Avoid Fate, Believe Lie, Brandobaris' Luck, Conceal, all Illusions, Swallow. Associated Gods Yondalla: provides Heal CON - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:57:22 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Personally I don't like the idea of a magus with 150% in a spell taking 50 hours and only having an INT x 3 chance of rememorising the spell after all that. Ash - -----Original Message----- From: Bob Stancliff [mailto:stanclif@ufl.edu] Sent: 05 March 1999 15:22 To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks > Dat's the big hole in the original rules: There is no ruling on how long it > takes to relearn a spell. All it mentions is "learning new spells." > Ash It works perfectly fine to say that learning a spell takes the same amount of time every time you have to do so. This isn't a mistake in the rules, just the way it is. You could give a reduced time for relearning, but it isn't needed. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:12:02 +0100 From: "Terje Tollisen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks > Personally I don't like the idea of a magus with 150% in a spell taking 50 > hours and only having an INT x 3 chance of rememorising the spell after all > that. > > Ash Using the RQ3 rules for learning new spells it's gonna take much longer. What we have to ask ourselves is what it means to memorize a spell. This is magic, and we don't have any magic in the RW. Some say we do, but at least we don't have specific spells cast by magician. It is a part of the magic system there are no parallels to in the RW (at least not that I can see). The memorization of a spell must be quite complex. Remember, an average person can onyl know 13 spells. It a kind of knowledge that "fills up" the brain/mind, but it does not hinder any normal brain activity after it's full. Also, it can be completely erased from the mind; all gone. So if you can remove the knowledge, it will be just as hard to learn it the second time, because you have no memory of the spell. Since we (most of us) want to keep the spell and the skill separate, it will not be any easier to learn a spell just because you know the skill, for they are to completely different kinds of knowledge. Some one said that the spell can be viewed as a tool, and the skill as the skill which you operate the tool with; and if you loose the tool you can not do the job. But just because you have had the tool before it will not be any easier to get a new tool the second time then it was the first. Oh, I just came up with a parallel to the RW. It might not be very good, but still: Computers. Once your hard disk is full, you can’t stuff any more into it. And if you remove a file (completely remove;-) it will take the same amount of time to copy it back on the disk as it did the first time. - -Terje Tollisen "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." -Tanenbaum ********************* Terje Tollisen Kjelsaasveien 99 0491 OSLO Norway ********************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:17:23 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Terje: >It a kind of knowledge that >"fills up" the brain/mind, but it does not hinder any normal >brain activity after it's full. Also, it can be completely erased >from the mind; all gone. I think you are taking it a bit too literally - the rules mechanics are there to provide balance and an easy means of adjudicating what is possible and what is not, not to accurately simulate in literal terms what is really happening. I'd take the rules as an approximation of reality, and not worry too deeply about the inner meaning of it all. If you want to adjust the balance, then do so, and don't let reality slow you down! Remember that RQ3 and Sandy's sorcery system try to simulate the same fantasy world, and come up with significantly different approaches. For instance, one limits the time that spells last, the other limits the number that one particular sorceror can maintain at one time. Which one represents Gloranthan reality? Neither, both are approximations. Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:28:29 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] spell books > Every time they say sorcery skill instead of sorcery > spell, or visa-versa. It was my understanding that their use of "sorcerery skill" was in reference to Intensity, Duration, Range and Multispell. > of what the rules say. I believe that it is your > preconception that keeps you from seeing what several of us > see... your assumptions bias your interpretation. Actually, my bias is in the fact that I can't get my mind around the concept of how to differenciate between a person's skill in a spell and their knowledge of that spell. I will bow to the majority here, it makes the rules quite a bit less messy anyway. Now that we've got that cleared up, I intend to keep my spellbook rules, as this seems to give an advantage to the sorcerer with a spellbook when he wants to re-memorize the spell. I've been dragging my feet on the write-up, partly to see where this thread is going, but also because I have a few other projects I'm working on. I hope to have the rules written up and on my web page very soon now. Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #46 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.