From: owner-runequest-rules@ (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.MPGN.COM Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #48 Reply-To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@ Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@ Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Tuesday, March 9 1999 Volume 02 : Number 048 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire [RQ-RULES] Mysticism [none] RE: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Re: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire [RQ-RULES] Craig Pays Website RE: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire Re: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism [RQ-RULES] Re: RE: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 17:40:48 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire Bob Stancliff wrote: > > have checked the creatures book again, and am no longer > convinced that Magic Spirits are like immature ghosts. It > is less likely that they speak a human tongue. Other than > that... it could happen. > I have trouble with Magic Spirits existing, since they > fill no clear niche in the world. If they were weak > ghosts, then they wouldn't need to be mentioned. If they > are not ghosts, then how do humans speak with them and why > do they know human spells. My original belief was that > they were souls that were ready to be reborn, having been > stripped of their past lives except for some lingering > knowledge. Now I have no firm opinion. Nature (and for the moment, we will assume that nature operates in similar ways in the fantasy-game-world-of-your-choice) never does anything just one way. While many plants and animals do fill specific niches in the world, more often an ecological niche is filled by a variety of similar critters that serve similar purposes. Magic spirits could just as easily be spell spirits that 'got a clue' and went rogue, the spirits of shamans either trapped in the spirit plane or who forgot their way home, fingerling gods, you name it. - -- talmeta@bellatlantic.net - Heretic & Dilettante ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta1 Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:55:21 GMT From: simonh@msi-uk.com (Simon Hibbs) Subject: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire Bob : > I have trouble with Magic Spirits existing, since they >fill no clear niche in the world. If they were weak >ghosts, then they wouldn't need to be mentioned. If they >are not ghosts, then how do humans speak with them and why >do they know human spells. My original belief was that >they were souls that were ready to be reborn, having been >stripped of their past lives except for some lingering >knowledge. Now I have no firm opinion. It's an interestign point. I haven't thought about it much before, but here are some possibilities : * Lost servitor spirits of the gods, similar to allied spirits but 'fallen from grace'. * Servitor spirits of dead gods. * Ghosts of city gods, from cities that are lost to history. * Tribal spirits for extinct tribes. Some may actualy be propper ghosts, but don't fit the 'standard' descriptions of ghosts. Perhaps inhabiting a mortal body after death is abhorent to them. I'm not sure what you mean by 'human' spells though. I can't actualy think of any that are purely human specific, other than the human variation of the heal spell. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:04:05 GMT From: simonh@msi-uk.com (Simon Hibbs) Subject: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire Rich Allen : > I have a related question... How does the ability to store sorcerer spells >in a familiar or Magic Spirit mesh with the idea that a spell's skill and >the ability to cast the spell are seperate? The _ability_ to cast a spell >is being stored externally? Is this like aquiring a third eye, but grafting >it onto your cat instead of your own forehead, and then being able to see >out of it whenever you feel like it? Well, not quite. In the case of a familiar the familiar knows and can cast the spell. The ability of the sorcerer to cast the spell is a side effect of the minlink like bond between sorcerer and familiar. Technicaly the spell doesn't belong to the sorcerer any more than the familar's eyes belong to him. Remember, the sorcerer can use the familiar's other faculties such as sight and hearing, so why not spells too? The ability to transfer spells from the sorcerer's mind to that of the familiar is clearly a difference between magical faculties and physical faculties. No analogy is perfect. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:05:55 GMT From: simonh@msi-uk.com (Simon Hibbs) Subject: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism >> In message , Nikk Effingham >> writes >> >Has everyone seen Sandy's rules for Mysticism? >> >> Nope. Available on the web? > >Craig Pays Website I do believe, along with Sandy's Sorcery rules, >Sorcery sect rules, Ritual Magic, Shamanism and Grimoire. Where's that? A URL would be rather handy. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:19:08 GMT From: simonh@msi-uk.com (Simon Hibbs) Subject: [none] Nikk : >Does anyone else have any other example mystical paths? And what >benefits you gain from them (tangible or otherwise)? Gloranthan or >otherwise? The lunars have a number of different and apparently mystical religious cults. The Gerran cult of suffering is one. I imagine it as being similar in some ways to Aztec bloodletting practices. Transcendence through self-mutilation. Lovely. I suppose Danfive Xaron is another, less extreme form of this. I think there are secrets in the Xiola Umbar/Zorak Zoran cults that are mystical in nature. I think XU is the nearest thing to illuminated that troll gods get (remember, she is not a troll). When she first encountered the dead sun in the underworld she called it 'friendship from affar'. We know that Jakaleel was a ZZ cultist before she turned to the Blue Moon, and historicaly the ZZ and XU cults were offshoots of a single protocult. The Blue Moon cult may be mystical in nature, but we'll never know! Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:26:12 -0000 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism Have a look on: http://www.hccweb.demon.co.uk/glorantha Cheers, Ash - -----Original Message----- From: simonh@msi-uk.com [mailto:simonh@msi-uk.com] Sent: 09 March 1999 10:06 To: runequest-rules@mpgn.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism >> In message , Nikk Effingham >> writes >> >Has everyone seen Sandy's rules for Mysticism? >> >> Nope. Available on the web? > >Craig Pays Website I do believe, along with Sandy's Sorcery rules, >Sorcery sect rules, Ritual Magic, Shamanism and Grimoire. Where's that? A URL would be rather handy. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 07:06:15 -0500 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks If you make a sorceror spend time re-learning the skill for a spell that he has dropped out of memory, you make sorcery spell matrices much more tricky to use. If you put down the matrix for a moment, you don't have knowledge of the spell for that moment. Does that really mean you have to learn the skill you had in the spell from scratch? Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:31:50 +0100 From: "Terje Tollisen" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] spellbooks Andrew: > If you make a sorceror spend time re-learning the skill for a spell that he > has dropped out of memory, you make sorcery spell matrices much > more trickyto use. If you put down the matrix for a moment, you > don't have knowledge of the spell for that moment. Does that really mean > you have to learn the skill you had in the spell from scratch? No. Most of us say that you loose knowledge of a spell, and then get the knowledge back later, the skill is unchanged. So you can put down a matrix and pick it back up without any problems. - -Terje Tollisen "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." -Tanenbaum ********************* Terje Tollisen Kjelsaasveien 99 0491 OSLO Norway ********************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:22:29 GMT From: "Nikk Effingham" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire > > > sacrifice 1 POW surely this doesn't work as you can't > > > order a bound/dominated being to sacrifice POW for you. > > Most cult spirits or friendly ancestors could be willing, > > but cult spirits don't apply to sorcerers, and friendly > > ancestors are difficult for a sorcerer to come up with. > > Sandy is human too... It is very common to forget a > > modifying rule in the glow of a neat idea. > > Yes, but who is to say that a magic spirit might be so unwilling to > learn sorcery? In the spirit's opinion, it might be a fair exchange > (assuming you play spirits as having personalities, and not just as > mindless spell cannons...) Ahh, but you can ORDER the spirit to learn magic spells, you can force it to, it doesn't really have a way of getting out of it. However, you can't force a creature to donate POW. I'm not sure it this is in the rules, but certainly when I put it to Sandy a while back he said that in his house rules you can't force a creature to donate POW - if you play you can then I would be very surprised. If a creature can be dominated/controlled into donating POW, all a sorceror has to do is get a familiar with a nice juicy POW of 3d6, burn its POW in as many enchantments as possible, and then kill it. Sure, the points used in the Create Familiar Spell won't return for a year, but in return you have oddles of enchantments. I can't remember the exact description of Create Familiar, but the only statistic a character is likely to miss would be INT, so find a creature already with INT and cast Create Familiar on it and turn it into a little enchantment factory. Silly. Very silly. Any sorceror would have lots and lots of enchantments, more so than would playable. The same applies to shamans who could capture a bundle of ghosts, or magic spirits, mindlink with them, or have a priest do it for them, and then get the spirit to make lots of enchantments. There's a few practical problems with this, but not many. Certainly a PC coul easily get around them (such as the shaman would need to find a priest willing to cast the spell, but that really isn't all that difficult)> All IMHO, Nikk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:35:09 GMT From: "Nikk Effingham" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Craig Pays Website The excellent set of downloads (also on a cool RQ webpage) can be found at: http://www.hccweb.demon.co.uk/glorantha/sandy.htm and i think it is a must have for all RQ roleplayers Nikk E. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:40:47 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire >the only statistic a character is likely to miss would >be INT, so find a creature already with INT and cast >Create Familiar on it and turn it into a little >enchantment factory. Silly. Very silly. Yes, but any creature with INT will have FRIENDS as well (chonchons possibly excepted, but there may well be a Daddy Chonchon Demigod on the inner region of the spirit plane, that might just come looking for its baby). Any abusive trick like this can have dramatic consequences if the referee wishes. Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:08:31 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire > * Lost servitor spirits of the gods, similar to allied spirits > but 'fallen from grace'. > * Servitor spirits of dead gods. > * Ghosts of city gods, from cities that are lost to history. > * Tribal spirits for extinct tribes. All of these would usually count as ghosts in my campaign since they are the spirits of human or demi-human beings. > I'm not sure what you mean by 'human' spells though. I can't > actualy think of any that are purely human specific, other than > the human variation of the heal spell. All of the sentient races use spirit and divine magic, true, so the word was poorly chosen, but can't some Magic Spirits know sorcery instead? The only Non-human civilized races that come to mind are dwarves and dragonnewts... any others? Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:14:34 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire > > I have a related question... How does the ability to store sorcerer spells > >in a familiar or Magic Spirit mesh with the idea that a spell's skill and > >the ability to cast the spell are seperate? The _ability_ to cast a spell > >is being stored externally? Is this like aquiring a third eye, but grafting > >it onto your cat instead of your own forehead, and then being able to see > >out of it whenever you feel like it? Think of a sorcery spell as a quick ritual. The knowledge of the magic of the ritual requires Free Int and can be stored in a familiar or a spell matrix. The skill at casting the ritual is personal and can never be transferred or stored. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:15:41 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism > >Craig Pays Website I do believe, along with Sandy's Sorcery rules, > >Sorcery sect rules, Ritual Magic, Shamanism and Grimoire. Check www.glorantha.com for a link to Craig's page. I saw it there yesterday. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:21:45 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: > The lunars have a number of different and apparently mystical > religious cults. The Gerran cult of suffering is one. I imagine it > as being similar in some ways to Aztec bloodletting practices. > Transcendence through self-mutilation. Lovely. I suppose Danfive > Xaron is another, less extreme form of this. I would consider them to be more extreme, they practice self flagellation and removing their own body parts that offend them. > I think there are secrets in the Xiola Umbar/Zorak Zoran cults > that are mystical in nature. I think XU is the nearest thing to > illuminated that troll gods get (remember, she is not a troll). Technically, none of the darkness deities are trolls, they are the parents of the mistress race. They all have the same ancestry to the true darkness, but XU might not be a mother of the trolls. Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:20:30 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Sandy's Grimoire >All of these would usually count as ghosts in my campaign >since they are the spirits of human or demi-human beings. Ronin servitor spirits may well have been mortal, like valkyrion, but that kind of depends on your mythology. >The only Non-human civilized races that come to >mind are dwarves and dragonnewts... any others? Depends on your setting - Ducks, Orcs, Merfolk, Elves, but I think we're drifting a long way from the point. The original question was "What are Magic Spirits if they are not Ghosts" - IMO, a ghost is a dead person that should be in the , and can still end up thereif pushed hard enough. Other spirits have become permanent residents of the spirit world, and have mostly lost the ability to posess bodies if they were ghosts. Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Failure is not an option, it's integral to the o/s. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #48 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. 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