From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #98 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Thursday, June 3 1999 Volume 02 : Number 098 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] 2H Re: [RQ-RULES] 2H Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ rules "feel" Re: [RQ-RULES] 2H [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #92 [RQ-RULES] Mythic Greece [RQ-RULES] Mysticism in gaming [RQ-RULES] RQ version of Roman Catholicism RE: [RQ-RULES] 2H RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #92 Re: [RQ-RULES] Pantheons Re: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism in gaming [RQ-RULES] RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #97 Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #92 RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:28:45 +0100 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] 2H Miguel said: (also answers some points from Kurt / William - whatever his real name is)   "When somebody try to increase a hit strength (in real life) always use the two hands..."   This isn't true, honest! Back in the early '90s the British Army commisioned a study on close combat weapons (Some twat of a General was worried that the new personal weapon wouldn't be as good as an SLR with a bayonet attached). Anyway... a bunch of a ergonomists ended up in hog heaven over this and found:   1. Most close combat IH swung weapon strikes have centre's of motion about the midpoint between the elbow and the shoulder while 2H weapons had a centre of motion about the midpoint of a triangle made up of the arms and the line between the shoulders; 2. Most weapon strikes hit with the same force whether used 1H or 2H. There may have been more oomph in a 2H strike but the data was inconclusive; 3. Overswings were identical in impact energy whether delivered 1H or 2H (The time it took to do the swing was far greater for a 1H overswing the weaker the individual doing the swinging and there were a fair number of missed swings).   The was loads of other guff as well, most of which I can't remember.   Now the weapons used were not as well balanced as a sword and no doubt the techniques were different. However, it does suggest that the difference in damage wouldn't be that great between using the same weapon 1 and 2H. Anyway, if it feels right, use the rule! I wouldn't object to a game with STR x 1.5 calculating the damage bonus - it's not going to be a lot for most Adventurer's anyway.   Maybe a better way of doing things would be have damage done by STR with a weapon modifier, like GURPS or Aftermath perhaps.   Sorry if anyone feels annoyed they paid to download this drivel...   Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:53:13 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] 2H Ashley Munday : > 2. Most weapon strikes hit with the same force whether used 1H or 2H. There > may have been more oomph in a 2H strike but the data was inconclusive; In that case, the most important factor for 1H vs. 2H can only be weapon mass. Cool ! But, we're back where we started ... :-( *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:01:06 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ rules "feel" Robert Stancliff : > > Because prices are linear, but POW is logarithmic > > (and the price for Rune Magic is X points of POW). > > POW advances in mass as SIZ does. > POW is linear, but some effects of using POW are geometric or > amplified. A linear change in the radius of a hose causes a geometric > change in the water that can flow through it. POW sacrificed for Divine > Magic is the conduit for bringing divine energy into the world for > performing magic (similarly to the hose). Also note that the direct > effect of magic such as damage or defense is usually linear, but the > secondary effects such as area of effect and duration are usually > geometric. Very nice analogy, couldn't have expressed it so concisely, but that's just about exactly what I meant, and I agree with you 100 % !!! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:54:58 -0500 From: William Wenz Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] 2H It's William Kurt Wenz, I go by my middle name- but my account is under my full name :) If I take a three and a half to four foot weapon and swing it 45 degrees one handed I will not get the same power as when I make the same swing using two hands. Part of this may be that it is easier to put my weight behind the weapon two handed. A good blow is not just arm strength, the body should toque also. A one handed bastard sword blow makes up for the loss of power from the second hand using momentum. This requires larger swinging arcs. I'll play with this and get hit a lot next fighter practice. I'll let you know what I find and what my bruses are. Kurt *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:04:27 -0700 From: Brad Furst Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #92 Ash Munday posted > >Bob [Stancliff] said about what Julian [Lord] said about Pantheonic >initiation: > >"You are the first person in twenty years that I have ever hear suggest that >worship is not god specific." > >Let be the second then! Unfortunately, the Staffordenfuhrer decided after RQ >III came out that Gloranthan worship was Pantheonic. I think the idea is >that you don't worship a single God with your POW point, but get connected >to a whole load of them. As the great man is no longer interested in RQ, >exactly what this means in game terms was never made apparent. When _I_ heard Greg speak about this, he was speaking about _lay_ members' worship being Pantheonic. This was often matched with coming-of-age passages into adulthood. Subsequently, some lay members will choose to specialize into a particular cult by "Initiation." Beware of Greg's anthropological use of terminology which may or may not have the same connotation in game systems. Bob is correct. Brad Furst esoteric@teleport.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:27:24 -0700 From: Brad Furst Subject: [RQ-RULES] Mythic Greece >Timothy Byrd: >>How would you change the >>rules to fit a campaign in Mythic Greece? >From: "Hibbs, Philip" >I did that! I used the Iron Crown "Mythic Greece" book as guidelines, and >just gave people a choice from a number of "power ups". One option was to >bump up the character's POW stat, and exchange POW for one reusable divine >spell (once per day) and one spirit spell per point of POW. He beat me to it, but I also highly recommend this very sourcebook. Remember, however, that the Wolfe book is set in the Iron Age, well after (1000 years?) the Trojan war. Brad Furst esoteric@teleport.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 05:31:44 -0400 (EDT) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism in gaming Julian Lord : >Generally speaking, the mystic seeks to become unaffected >by material things, rather than affecting them, and seeks >to abstract certain material mechanisms of being and action >so as to free the soul into a sphere of increased >awareness of the self and the world. The mystic transcends the distinction between self and world. >This implies, though, that the Mystic *must* use his >mystic stuff to affect the material world; at least that >portion of the material world which houses his spirit; >failing which, he'll never be a Mystic, because he'll >be incapable of transcendent action. The mystic achieves unity with the cosmic order. Microcosm and macrocosm become one. The true mystic does not act, but becomes action. >I'd say, in a nutshell, that although mystic abilities >are not supposed to give you supernatural abilities, >nevertheless, in a magic world it is *inevitable* >that they will. I'm sure you're right. The important thing is to maintain an aura of mystery. The game itself is a materialistic construct, in that it represents characters and forces and actions as 'things' with defined interactions between them. This is inimical to mysticism, but inevitable. There will always be problems trying to represent mysticism in such a context. Using game mechanics to represent mysticism is like trying to represent a piece of music through painting. The best you can do is attempt to evoke the same kind of mood or feeling. Simon *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:57:43 -0700 From: Brad Furst Subject: [RQ-RULES] RQ version of Roman Catholicism >From: Julian Lord >Erik : > >> And keep them mysterious, please. >> The Cult of Jesus Christ shouldn't give you the >> Divine Magics Turn Water to Wine and Walk on Water. > > >I disagree ! >Christianity is all about the Imitation of Christ, isn't it ? > > >Some Priests of Christ, in the RQ version of Roman Catholicism, >would almost inevitably use magic to perform such miracles. >Although I doubt that this would fit in with the tenets of >RW Christianity ... if they could, they would. >In a FRPG world, some *could*. Am I misunderstanding? Priests of Christ regularly use the spell Transmute Wine to Blood and Transmute Bread to Body [bone? flesh? of Jesus]. This doctrine is not open to variation, it is mandantory to Roman Catholics, yes? (and Orthodox as well)? Brad Furst esoteric@teleport.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:11:55 +0100 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] 2H Kurt said: "A one handed bastard sword blow makes up for the loss of power from the second hand using momentum." 1H and 2H blows delivered a similar force on the target, so they must have had similar angular momentum when they hit. One theory put forward to explain this was that over most swings the blow reached a terminal deflection rate (angular velocity). I think they picked on this one as it was similar to the model used to describe running. Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:11:55 +0100 From: Ashley Munday Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #92 Brad he say: "When _I_ heard Greg speak about this, he was speaking about _lay_ members' worship being pantheonic." Never having heard the man speak in RL I'll believe you, but a transcript in one of the many Con books (QLII maybe?) had a chunk about pantheonic initiation being "real" initiation. I'll have a dig when I get home and see if I can find which book it was in. Ash =========================================== Aescleal http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1853/ Home: ashley@geocities.com OR ashleym@telinco.co.uk Work: ashley.munday@liffe.com =========================================== *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:18:14 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Pantheons Brad Furst : > When _I_ heard Greg speak about [Pantheonic Initiation], he was speaking about > _lay_ members' worship being Pantheonic. This was often matched with > coming-of-age passages into adulthood. id est : pantheonic initiation ... > Subsequently, some lay members will choose to > specialize into a particular cult by "Initiation." id est : cultic initiation So, you're saying that there (at least) are two separate kinds of initiation in these cultures? I know. But who knows whether the "lay member" term will survive in the up-coming HW "new" Glorantha ... If it does, though, then I'd say that most adults, who are initiated into their pantheon, and attend the sacred rites, etc... would be considered lay members of all the cults in their local version of the pantheon. They'd have access to a (limited) number of common divine magic IMO (but I would like to stress that IMO most of them wouldn't take advantage of this availability !); but RQ Initiates as opposed to lay members, would have wider and deeper access to them. > Beware of Greg's > anthropological use of terminology which may or may not have the same > connotation in game systems. Well, Greg has the confusing tendency to use one word to mean several different things. Which doesn't help resolve disagreements in interpreting what he meant ... :-( > Bob is correct. I disagree. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 14:09:44 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Mysticism in gaming Simon Hibbs : > The mystic transcends the distinction between self > and world. > > The mystic achieves unity with the cosmic order. Microcosm > and macrocosm become one. I'd say microcosm and mesocosm, to use a Campbellism ! Mesocosm is a useful word. If microcosm and macrocosm became one for a RQ character, that character would be God, or at the very least *a* god. > The true mystic does not act, > but becomes action. Subject and Object are transcended; Mysticism is meta-Action. In game terms, it can actually be described by rules, as long as you have an understanding of the meta-rules, so that mystic PCs and NPCs can transcend the ordinary laws of the game. Mystic characters can only be properly defined as transcending the rules system. OK, no game system is ever likely to produce mystic ecstacy among players; but who cares? The only thing we need to know are the *apparent*, outward, non-mystic, game effects of transcendental powers; effects that can most definitely be simulated with rules. But sure, you're right, potential minor quibbles excepted. > The game itself is a > materialistic construct, in that it represents characters > and forces and actions as 'things' with defined > interactions between them. This is inimical to mysticism, > but inevitable. Well, it is *theoretically* possible for a player, a world designer, a rules system, a GM, to transcend this problem ... ;-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:25:17 -0400 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #97 > The Cult of Jesus Christ shouldn't give you the > Divine Magics Turn Water to Wine and Walk on Water. It should give you the magics Handle Poisonous Snakes and Speak With Tongues - those are the abilities promised to believers in the Acts of the Apostles, and still claimed by some followers today. I notice that these are -not- based on anything Jesus is said to have done in the gospels. Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:26:09 -0400 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #92 > >Bob [Stancliff] said about what Julian [Lord] said about Pantheonic > >initiation: > >"You are the first person in twenty years that I have ever heard suggest that > >worship is not god specific." > >Let be the second then! Unfortunately, the Staffordenfuhrer decided after RQ > >III came out that Gloranthan worship was Pantheonic. > Brad Furst > When _I_ heard Greg speak about this, he was speaking about _lay_ members' > worship being Pantheonic. This was often matched with coming-of-age > passages into adulthood. Subsequently, some lay members will choose to > specialize into a particular cult by "Initiation." If I sat down now to write RQ4, I would return lay member status in a pantheonic form. Preferably in a form similar to Initiate status now, but slightly easier to get (no POW sacrifice or only to the primary god), with one-use spell access and a tithe spread between several temples/shrines. Lay members would count 1/2 for temple initiate population requirements so that all cities and most towns could have a temple. Most people would be a lay member for most of the local gods (appropriate to their sex). Initiates and rune lords would get spells renewed at the High Holy Day worship, and if they missed it, they are S.O.L. and apostate for a year. Priests and acolytes would get spells renewed at any worship service, possibly limited to once a week. I would like to include a Rune Point system at the same time, to increase the flexibility of divine magic. My intent is to make divine magic nearly as prevalent as spirit magic and sorcery, and in exchange I would greatly reduce the access to high intensities of variable spirit magic through temples and probably restrict more worshippers to temple spirit magic only (no getting a shaman to give you Prot 10 when the temple can only teach Prot 4). I have also considered making the three forms of magic less compatible so that Damage Boost, Bladesharp, and Truesword will not simultaneously increase weapon damage. This comes back to the issue of whether casting the different types of spells is truly incompatible due to mindset, the magical energies involved, or can an illuminate learn all of them and be multiple rune levels (priest/shaman/sorcerer) because the restriction is only cultural. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #98 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.