From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #144 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Saturday, September 4 1999 Volume 02 : Number 144 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] Death by DI [RQ-RULES] NPC DI rolls [RQ-RULES] Death by DI [RQ-RULES] DMD - Moloch for RQ/Greyhawk Re: [RQ-RULES] Death by DI [RQ-RULES] DMD - Nisroch for RQ/Greyhawk RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Death by DI Bob Stancliff : >> I see no reason why the loyal sevice of one's soul >> in the heavenly host for 101 years, or whatever, couldn't count >> as quite a sufficient sacrifice. > As a loyal follower, you are going to spend a huge portion of your >afterlife aiding your god, so there is no reason for the god to take you >early to something you are going to do anyway. The god certainly doesn't >care about time, so he is in no hurry. The rules on DI clearly state that people rolling their full POW _are_ taken up into the heavenly host to serve their god. I find it difficult to see how you can argue that this doesn't happen. > The link between the soul and the spirit world always existed. The >spirit was sent from the otherworld to be born. Removing the spirit from >the body allows the spirit to return to its natural home. There is no >'portal' or newly created link. Obviously each individual is linked to their spirit in the spirit world, but that is a personal link and even a god cannot use a person's personal link simply at will. For a god to force their way through like that would require something akin to a posession atack. Normaly the person deliberately allows the god through that link by expending POW. I do not believe that trading POW between a worshiper and the god is the same kind of trade as a person paying coins to buy apples. A materialist might view it in the same way, but theists are not materialists. My own view is that POW sacrificed for divine magic, or even DI, is not the fuel that powers the magic. Instead it opens the way for the divine powers to intervene in the world. > A sacrifice is a completely different process. The spell of a sacrifice >uses the death of a creature to power the magic of some kind of summoning >so that the caster doesn't have to. Without the sacrifice spell to >redirect the victim's spirit, the victim would simply die. Thet's certainly now how people in the ancient world viewed sacrifices, so I fail to see why it should have to be that way in Glorantha, or any other RQ world. There are plenty of sources avilable on this. Sacrifices were seen as gifts or offerings to otherworldly forces, not 'energizer batteries' for magic. > The Daka Fal 'Summon Ancestor' doesn't require a spirit combat. The >spirit would have Pow and MP's =0, which would make it easy to coerce or >control, if that were desired, but the intention of summoning it was to >Gift Pow so that it would be stronger. Suppose I used the generic 'Summon Ghost' spell instead? I don't see how a creature with POW 0 can be coerced or controlled in any way. You can't cast spells at it, because there is no aura to target. You can't defeat it in an MP versus MP roll because there are no MPs there to overcome. It's like saying that I can automaticaly beat intelect spirits in an arm wrestling contest - there's nothing there to wrestle, so the concept is meaningless. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:40:03 -0400 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] NPC DI rolls IMG, NPCs are always just as entitled to their DI rolls as PCs. Whether they actually take them depends on (1) whether I remember (2) whether I think it adds to or takes away from the story (3) the Roger Rabbit rule: 'I can only do it when it's funny'. Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:40:05 -0400 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] Death by DI As requested, here's the wording of the rule that leads some people to believe you can get POW 0 spirits after a DI: 'If the D100 roll is greater than the adventurer's POW, then the wish will not come true and there is no other effect. If the D100 roll is equal or less then the adventurer's POW, the god hears the appeal and intercedes as the adventurer requests. The adventurer then loses that number of current POW points equal to the player's D100 roll. This is a permanent change in the adventurer's current POW. If the adventurer must lose an amount of current POW points which equals his total current POW characteristic, then the wish comes true but the adventurer's soul will end up at its appointed place on the god plane. The adventurer is dead.' On the face of it, this does seem to say that a D100 roll equal to POW has - -both- effects, the character's POW going to 0 and his spirit going to the god's service. When I checked the RQ2 rule, I was surprised to find that its wording did permit the same interpretation. Until this discussion started, I'd never heard of anyone believing that a spirit with POW 0 could continue to exist. In the RQ3 rules, the only direct reference I can find is the one under the description of the Soul Waste disease. The RQ2 description of Soul Waste is much the same for the purposes of this argument, it can still be read as saying that POW 0 only causes you to cease to exist as a special effect of losing it to the disease. -But-, in RQ2 there was another common way of having your POW reduced to zero, namely spirit combat. The rules state: 'This POW loss is temporary, and will be regained at the usual rate, after the battle is over. However, if POW is reduced to zero, the combatant ceases to exist.' So, there aren't many references to what happens to a spirit with POW 0, but all there are do say that it ceases to exist. Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 12:26:39 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] DMD - Moloch for RQ/Greyhawk Lords of the Nine MOLOCH Runes: Law (Malign), Evil, Death Moloch is the Lord of Hell's Sixth Layer, known as Malbolge. Cult in the World Though considered the Viceroy of Baalzebub, he is a full arch-Devil in his own right, and given dominion over the Angry who are condemed to his realm. He has no fortress of his own, as Baalzebub orders him about the Layer at random, for his lord fears that if he were left to gather strength in any one place, he would forment rebellion against his lord. The layer of Malbolge is actually an endless sea of lava, from which project massive black stones that lie tumbled and half submerged as though scattered by the hand of some careless god. Some are the size of cities, while others are merely immense. Mighty stone citadels inhabited by malebranche and bone devils dot the landscape, and it is between these that Moloch and his household migrate at Baalzebub's whim. Like his leige Baalzebub and Belial, Moloch oversees the torment of the souls given over to his care mostly through intermediaries, usually malebranche or spined devils. Certain specimens, however, he gives personal attention to, for he considers himself an artist in the fields of mutilation and disfigurement. Manifestations Moloch is wingless, thick, and broad. Reddish-orange hide is stretched taughtly over his well muscled frame, and his long horns project upwards from his head at a cruel angle. His mouth is wide, full of tiny sharp teeth, and his eyes are small, beady, and bloodshot. When summoned to this plane, a tremendous stink accompanies him, part sulfur, part smoke, and part burning flesh. Lesser Contracts Requirements: Moloch consorts only with those of a like mind; hence those who seek to summon him must have a score of 12 or more in the Angry, Cruel, Destructive or Misanthropic virtues or he will not appear. Similarly, a pair of sacrifices is typically offered, most often twin youths (preferably maidens) of unparalleled beauty. The first is to be mutilated and disfigured by the summoner's own hand, while the second is left pristine (a gift to Moloch, who will attend to her in his own time). If everything is satisfactory, Moloch will agree to bestow the following gifts upon the supplicant for the price of POW listed below: 1) Raise either the Angry, Cruel, Destructive, or Misanthropic virtues by one point. 1) Provide the summoner with one casting of the Flay or Break Body spells (one use). 3) The service of an imp to serve the caster as a familiar and advisor for one year's time. 6) Provide the services of a malebranche devil for a period of one day. Greater Contracts Requirements: Those who would serve Moloch's interests in this world must be even more devoted to his credo of Fury. Scores of no less than 16 must exist in at least two of the virtues mentioned above, and the supplicant must be willing to mutilate, destroy, or sacrifice everything he holds dear in order to catch Moloch's attention for his summons. Those who bear Moloch's Talismans can utilize them for a number of purposes, in addition to those listed above. Some of these powers include: 1) The touch of the bearer acts as a Crack spell. 2) The bearer becomes affected by Fury (as per Sky Crater Fury a divine spell of the same name). 3) The bearer gains a poisonous breath similar to the divine Black Breath spell; POT of the poison is equal to twice the POW stored in the Talisman. 4) The bearer fights as though under the effect of a divine Berserker spell. If the bearer suceeds in making a virtue roll on one of the aforementioned virtues, up to 1d4 of his companions may be affected as well, if he so wills. Moloch's Talismans always take the form of a small braided-wire cat-o-nine tails made from an alloy of arjale and iron. Spirit of Reprisal None: Moloch has no servants loyal enough to be entrusted to carry out his wishes in this world on a regular basis. Instead, he will send a random number of malebranche (2d6) to find and capture those who have displeased him. - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:22:15 -0400 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Death by DI > >> I see no reason why the loyal sevice of one's soul > >> in the heavenly host for 101 years, or whatever, couldn't count > >> as quite a sufficient sacrifice. Because it is not a sacrifice... look the word up. Serving the god is a guaranteed duty (and privilege) after death. The person isn't giving something they have not already promised to give. > > As a loyal follower, you are going to spend a huge portion of your > >afterlife aiding your god, so there is no reason for the god to take you > >early to something you are going to do anyway. The god certainly doesn't > >care about time, so he is in no hurry. The point was that it is stupid for the god to provide the miracle, leave your Pow intact, and still kill your body. One of these three points is WRONG. Either there is no miracle, you have zero Pow, or you are still alive. > The rules on DI clearly state that people rolling their full POW _are_ > taken up into the heavenly host to serve their god. I find it difficult > to see how you can argue that this doesn't happen. You have taken the discussion out of context. I have demonstrated from the rules that in most cases, a Pow=0 does not kill the spirit, only the body. Andrew Barton and I have both shown that the DI roll equal to the current Pow drops the Pow to zero. Since the body is dead, it is only right for the god to take the spirit to the afterlife. He has promised to do so, and it is an obligation. Of course it happens. > I do not believe that trading POW between a worshiper and the god is the > same kind of trade as a person paying coins to buy apples. A materialist might > view it in the same way, but theists are not materialists. It clearly seems to be a barter... I give the god something now so that he can give me something later. That doesn't make me a materialist. Barter is fundamental to all primitive and barbarian cultures. People worship gods based on their expectation of temporal rewards, however simple (like rain at good times and not at bad times). > My own view is that POW sacrificed for divine magic, or > even DI, is not the fuel that powers the magic. Instead > it opens the way for the divine powers to intervene in the world. All Initiates sacrifice Pow to gods to create a link from their soul to the god's. The first one allows the god to know his followers and receive their prayers and MP sacrifices. The rest are to allow the passage of spell effects back to the worshipper. The game rules draw a distinction between the Pow sacrifice of initiates vs. those of priests. In the old rules an initiate could become a priest if his Pow was high enough. In the current rules it can happen when enough Pow has been sacrificed. Probably both should be true, I kind of liked the old rules. It seems to me the energy to power divine spells actually comes from the MP's sacrificed by worshippers, and is channeled through the link formed by the sacrifice of Pow. The thing that makes a priest special is that this link is not burned out or broken during the process. This is apparently a choice of the god when he accepted the investment of the new priest. > > A sacrifice is a completely different process. The spell of a sacrifice > >uses the death of a creature to power the magic of some kind of summoning > >so that the caster doesn't have to. Without the sacrifice spell to > >redirect the victim's spirit, the victim would simply die. > That's certainly not how people in the ancient world viewed sacrifices, so I > fail to see why it should have to be that way in Glorantha, or any other RQ > world. > There are plenty of sources avilable on this. Sacrifices > were seen as gifts or offerings to otherworldly forces, > not 'energizer batteries' for magic. But what is the action that makes it a sacrifice? It is not the death of the victim. People die in battle all the time and only Elric confused that with a sacrifice. It is the ritual used to kill the victim, usually on an alter, that makes it a sacrifice. If you only put a knife into someone, they die and there is no effect. The spell, the prayer, no matter what it does, or how it works, is the necessary key. Why did the Aztecs climb way up those pyramids before cutting the victim's heart out? Because the ritual is part of the spell that makes it a sacrifice. > > The Daka Fal 'Summon Ancestor' doesn't require a spirit combat. The > >spirit would have Pow and MP's =0, which would make it easy to coerce or > >control, if that were desired, but the intention of summoning it was to > >Gift Pow so that it would be stronger. > Suppose I used the generic 'Summon Ghost' spell instead? You would get a trivial spirit combat. > I don't see how a creature with POW 0 can be coerced or controlled in any way. Once an opponents MP's are zero, a control spell is automatically successful and can be used to command the spirit or force it into a bind. Pow is not significant to the discussion. > You can't cast spells at it, because there is no aura to target. Summoned spirits are visible, they have been forced into the physical world. I could agree that Pow is a major contributor to the aura of a spirit, but I don't agree that it is the only factor. For that matter, Pow is equated to willpower and luck also. Last year someone argued that stats are not really integer quanta. There is logically a chance to have a residue after a stat is drained. This doesn't keep a body from dying, but it supports the idea that a spirit can still have some existence with a Pow=0. > You can't defeat it in an MP versus MP roll because there are no MPs there to overcome. Zero MP's are a valid number. Most spells are considered automatic in this case. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 00:20:54 -0400 From: Tal Meta Subject: [RQ-RULES] DMD - Nisroch for RQ/Greyhawk Lords of the Nine NISROCH Runes: Law (Malign), Evil Known as 'the Eagle', Nisroch is known both inside and outside the Hells as a master of poison and assassination. Cult in the World Nisroch is another of Hell's outcasts, banished for bringing about the deaths of several of his fellow greater devils through poisoning. He has made the arts of assassination and poison his own personal passions, and though his current circumstances leave him few opportunities to practice his favorite arts, he has found mortal summoners to be a fertile plain upon which to further his goals... Manifestations Nisroch's physical form is that of a black humanoid with the head of a black eagle; feathers continue down from the neck over most of the chest to about the lower ribs. His unblinking eyes are a pale, luminescent yellow, and he has batlike wings upon his back. His elbows boast long barbed spines, as do his wings. They look designed for close combat, rather than mere decoration. A queer, sickly-sweet scent accompanies Nisroch's manifestation, like the scent of something that has just begun to decay. Lesser Contracts Requirements: Nisroch will typically only answer the summons of one who has poisoned another at some point in their lives. Nisroch will provide the following services in exchange for the POW sacrifices detailed below: 1) Nisroch will gift the supplicant with +10% to his Poison Lore skill. 2) For this sacrifice, Nisroch will provide the supplicant with a dram of nekylshrade, a blade venom with a POT of 16 (1 dram will coat 4 daggers or 2 swords, and is good for 1d3 strikes). 4) For this, Nisroch will gift the supplicant with a dram of phesthelshrade (the melted heart of an ice devil). A single drop is sufficient to poison an entire cask of wine or beer with a POT 21 poison. Greater Contracts Requirements: Those who would summon Nisroch to forge a Greater Contract must do so only at the height of a party where they have poisoned at least a dozen of their friends, family, and associates. The incantation is begun once the first person succcumbs to the poison, and will only be complete when the last has fallen. In addition to the rewards above, those who bear one of Nisroch's Talsimans can acquire the following gifts, as well: So long as the bearer kills one individual by poison a month, they may add the POW stored in the Talisman to their own CON to resist poison, and if the POT is less than or equal to twice the POW in the Talisman, they take no damage if they save successfully. For the cost of two POW from the Talisman, the caster gains an effect identical to the Black Breath spell. If the supplicant can provide Nisroch with a poison he is unacquinted with, Nisroch will render the supplicant immune to any one type of poison (ingestive, soluble, contact, or gaseous). Nisroch will agree to this bargain only three times, however. For a cost of three POW from the Talisman, the bearer may infuse his bare hands with poison, POT equal to his current magic points. He may then elect to either touch another being, or wipe his hands on a blade and use it in combat (the poison will remain effective for 1d3 rounds, in either case). Nisroch's Talismans take the form of a small vial made from the skull of a snake or bat, wrapped with silver wire and stoppered with cork. For especially favored servitors, gemstones native to the Inferno may be placed in the eyesockets to further accentuate the Talisman. Spirit of Reprisal None: Nisroch killed all of his servants long ago. However, those who have displeased him will find that their entire bodies begin to exude poison, with a POT equal to their CON. Not only is their touch poisonous, but their breath and secretions, as well. - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #144 ************************************* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. 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