From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V2 #179 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Thursday, December 30 1999 Volume 02 : Number 179 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. [RQ-RULES] Ancient atheists Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:15:38 -0500 (EST) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ Rich Allen : >> In ancient greece and rome every household had it's own god of the hearth, >> complete with shrine and special family rituals. Many people > >How do you know that? Did every household in ancient Greece and Rome leave >a detailed account of their daily lives? What about the remote villages? We have contemporary accounts from Greek and Roman diarists, letter writers, historians and poets. We have accounts by egyptian and persian visitors to Rome who wrote accounts of their customs. We have copious archaeological evidence from too many sources to mention. Ones I've visited personaly include the finds at York, collections of household items in the British Museum and the Louvre and the almost intact greek city at Ephasus. This constitutes a huge body of evidence. I suppose it depends on how pedantic you're prepared to be. Obviously we don't have records of every single household in the ancient world. >So, are you saying that there were no atheists in the >1700's?? That's what I disagreed with. I've said no such thing. I was talking about the Enlightenment, which took place during the 1700s, but was based on many ideas developed in the 1600s. All of which is at least several centuries after the period under discussion. >No, I didn't think so. While I cannot prove that there were people in >ancient times that had no religious beliefs, you cannot prove that their >were none. I suppose you could speculate wildly that some people may have been modern-style atheists, but that's all it would be. >Are we? I thought we were talking about a RQ game in which the GM wanted to >explore a monotheistic setting that was similar to Christianity. Why does >this have to mean that religion must be a central theme?? The fact that 90% of the description of the game concerns religion tipped me off. How important does a theme have to be to be one of the central ones? For a cracking good book on the history of monotheistic beliefs and the development of monotheistic religious theory throughout the last few thousand years, take a look at 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong. I can't recommend it highly enough. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:09:59 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. SPerrin@aol.com wrote: > > Given that the Jolanti were referred to as the "Man and a Half" tribe, you > can figure that their average height was about 99", or 8' 3". Truly large > members of the tribe extend up to as much as 9 1/2 feet, but these are the > Shaquile O'Neill's of the tribe. I thought the Agimori were the men-and-a-half, and jolanti were some sort of dwarven construct....?? - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:45:49 -0500 (EST) From: simon_hibbs@lycosmail.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Ancient atheists Andrew Barton : >> However actualy stopping >believing that god, or gods of any kind exist was unheard of. > >Socrates was condemned to death on a charge of denying the existence of the >gods. He was executed on charges of corrupting the young. He said that he believed that the gods were manifestations of a single divine essence, which later greek philosophers refered to as the Logos. (Incidentaly the Greek word Logos is the root of the english word Logic. The Malkioni in Glorantha believe that they are the heirs to the Kingdom of Logic.) According to Plato (Gorgias), Socrates says - ][507] ...a man who would be blessed with the needful ]justice and temperance; not letting one's desires go ]unrestrained and in one's attempts to satisfy them--an ]interminable trouble--leading the life of a robber. ]For neither to any of his fellow-men can such a one be ]dear, nor to God; since he cannot commune with any, ]and where there is no communion, there can be no ]friendship. ... Socrates may not have believed in the personality cults of the Olympian gods, but he was not an atheist. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:45:04 EST From: SPerrin@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. In a message dated 12/30/1999 6:19:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, talmeta@cybercomm.net writes: << > > Given that the Jolanti were referred to as the "Man and a Half" tribe, you > can figure that their average height was about 99", or 8' 3". Truly large > members of the tribe extend up to as much as 9 1/2 feet, but these are the > Shaquile O'Neill's of the tribe. I thought the Agimori were the men-and-a-half, and jolanti were some sort of dwarven construct....?? >> You know, after all the times I've said "I don't do Glorantha any more," you'd think I'd have the sense to keep my mouth shut about obscure Gloranthan races. You're right, of course. The Agimori are the 8' wonders. So now all one needs to know is the ratio of height between the Agimori and Jolanti and you know how big the Jolanti are :). Steve Perrin, who should have stuck to his own advice and said "they're big" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:58:20 EST From: MurfNMurf@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. Man & a 1/2? I think thats the big black guys,the Agmori (or something). The Jolanti are big animated stone statues of a (as yet) undetermined height. -Ken- On another point, I really liked the Healing stuff out of Steve's Rules, and decided to send them to the other members of my gaming group; where at least 2 other folks just ate it up with spoons as well . Thanks Steve. Very cool. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:06:19 EST From: MurfNMurf@aol.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Getting back to useful stuff. Regarding my Jolanti question, Steve commented: now all one needs to know is the ratio of height between the Agimori and Jolanti and you know how big the Jolanti are :). How eeeeasy :) ....I've used that pesky ratio-bugaboo when I tried figuring the SIZ of Talos from Jason & The Argonauts. I think I settled on him being a 64m-high Giant. Hey, maybe I should be grilling Sandy, his name's featured prominently on the cover of the Bestiary.... -Ken- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:00:15 -0500 From: rico@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Christianity in RQ With apologies to the rest of the list... > The fact that 90% of the description of the game concerns religion > tipped me off. How important does a theme have to be to be one of > the central ones? Hmm, what game are you talking about? My RQ3 deluxe edition has maybe 10% religious content, with the majority of that in the Magic book under Divine Magic. The Glorantha book doesn't count, as it is an OPTIONAL setting for RQ. The campaign I GM uses religion very rarely, and only as far as it concerns background for plot elements. My players don't want to go through the hoops necessary for a character to get and use divine magic, so they don't. The campaign in which I am a player (same group of people, I just don't GM it) might as well not have any religion at all. None of us play initiates and we have never come into contact with any members of any cults that I can recall. It just isn't important. Hmm, we're playing RQ though, that's what it says on the cover of the rule books! Rich *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:44:24 -0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9rgio_Mascarenhas?= Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Christianity in RQ - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF52C3.9A9DDAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich: >Who says "salvation" is part of the religion? Do reincarnationists = have >salvation as the root of their beliefs? What about animists? Rich, what are we talking about? Christianism, right? It's not about = religions that believe in reincarnation, or about animism, IIRC. >Also, in pretty much every mention of faith I've heard as it applies to >someone's religion, it's something like "My son died of cancer and he >was such a good boy, I've lost my faith in God because he did nothing." >Or something along those lines. This doesn't mean lost faith in their >salvation through God, but lost faith in God itself. At least to me. The only problem is that we're not talking about. Or about me. Or about = 20th century, western world visions of Godhood. We are talking about = pre-modern Christianism. And a pre-modern Christianism where many of its = beliefs that in the RW were highly disputed in latter eras hold true and = would not be disputed if this game world evolved into a modern age. >Maybe this all means something in Christianity, but I think that whole >discussion is off course. In his original post, Michael asked for = ideas in >a campaign that depicts "a monotheistic faith LIKE Christianity with a >basically polytheistic gamesystem like RQ" (emphasis on LIKE is mine). >All of this diatribe about Christian origins, beliefs, etc. is = basically just a >small subset of what is possible in a setting as described by Michael. Umm. I saw only an interpretation of that statement: he wants a religion = based on Christianism. So, our reference is Christianism, not animism or = Hinduism. Discussing those religious practices is off topic. And he has = a problem: RQ rules are not intended to represent this type of religion = (Christianism / monotheism). If we want to develop those rules, we must = understand what's Christianism, how it does operate, what "powers" it = gives to its followers, etc. When we understand this, we may build rules = for a religion that may not event be like Christianism, but that was = inspired by it. That's how I read the 'like' you enphasided. I see no reason (at least, based on Michael's statement) to enlarge the = set of issues to discuss. Simon: >They [Islam, Christians and Jews] do not claim to be worshiping >different gods, but to be the correct way to worship _the_ god. Are you referring to this now, or in pre-modern ages? At that time I = doubt that Christians (at least) were so compromising, or to be more = specific: they compromised with Jews (same god, yes). But not with = Islam. Yes, Islam was part of the same religious culture, but they had = (according to Christians) chosen the worng side: the side of the Devil. >I'd also point out similarities between the Hindu theory and the >christian conception of the Holy Trinity. AFAIK you're right on this. In fact, this even mislead many early modern = Europeans that went to India to think that hinduists were christians. = But it's only a similarity, nothing more. >You were claiming that it's reasonable to say that Allah (the god >of Abraham) does exist but that the god of the Jews (also the god >of Abraham) doesn't. It might be reasonable to say that the >religious insights of one of these religions is wrong and the other is >right, but that's quite a different thing. Sorry if I didn't explain my position correctly. As I say above, the = question (from a Christian POV; I'm not interested in the Jew or islamic = POV, since this is not what's being represented) is not whether Jews and = Moslems belong to the same religious field as Christians. They do, of = course. What makes them different from Christians is that (according to = Christians) they don't believe in the "whole" god (since they don't = recognize the divine nature of Christ); and because they choose the = wrong side in the basic duality inherent in Christianism (which is = shared by Judaism and Islam): the duality between God and the Devil. >>Theologists and philosophers might disproof certain proofs in >>particular, but they would not deny in abstract the possibility of >>religious proofs. > >However they never found such a proof. Individuals did believe that >they had constructed such proofs, but they were never adopted by any >church as official doctrine. True. But in a game things work differently. Here God manifests himself = directely, and those proofs can be found. The game accepts as fact what = in the RW is speculation or dogma, since this is, in game terms, the = best way to be faithful to the beliefs of those that really believed = those speculations or dogmas to be facts. (I hope I was clear on this.) >Which belief is that? Please point it out. I'm afraid I don't >follow you. Please, name one proof of the existence of god that was >accepted as doctrine by the mediaeval church? Miracles. The action of saints. The game designer must decide whether in = his game these are "real" or just imaginary. >AD&D presents Good as being an objectively verifiable phenomenon >independent of religious belief. Are you saying that christians believe >that the existence of objective goodness has nothing to do with the >existence of god? No, and I'm not defending AD&D. I'm saying that because they misused = those concepts, we should not drop them. What we need is to use them = better. >>After all, who are you going to believe? The guy who stands up and >>debates the theology of his point in a long winded philosophical >>discourse or the guy who heals your sick mother and fries your >>enemies with lightning bolts from heaven? >> > >Why not someone who does both? Are you saying that divine magical >power is not attainable by philopsophers and prophets? What if the >lightning thrower is in league with the devil? I don't think that's an >answer at all. it doesn't even look remotely like an answer. No. What I'm saying is that, if divine powers are a matter of fact, if = God manifests itself and miracles are (in the game) true, if common = people's beliefs and religious practices are not simply a matter of = faith and psychological (like we tend to think nowadays in the RW), many = of the historical tehological debates, and religious philosophy would = loose their 'raison d'etre'. Why would theologists need to discuss endlessly the nature of god, its = existance, its manifestations, if this was a verifiable fact? That's why I said that the designer of a game based in Christianism must = make a choice: either he is trying to represent it according to the view = of the common people, which means that Christianism offers concrete, = mensurable, factual powers; or he is trying to represent it according to = the POV of the theologists, which does not give credit to such things. I just think that we can't have both. >Are you saying that christians believed that only christians could >have supernatural powers? What about witches, satanists and >sorcerers? According to christian beliefs pagans and heretics >clearly can have apparently miraculous powers, so I fail to see >your point. No proof can be based on the possession of miraculous >powers alone and still be consistent with christian beliefs. You miss the question of the source of those powers. The faithful get = those powers from god, the others get them from the devil. Of course, of = one the main problems of historical christianism was how to recognize = the difference... Nothwithstanding, the existance of those powers was proof of the = existance of God, either because the powers emanated from god, or = because they emanated from the devil, and the devil could only be = understood if god existed. Of course it [faith] shouldn't be a skill, but you can still use similar = or even >the same game mechanics, as per Pendragon. What exactly are we >arguing about? If it should be or not be a skill. We are not talking about Pendragon, = but about Runequest. In Runequest Skills are a very precise thing. We = can use similar mechanics (like attribute rolls), but the game = differenciates the two things. So, we must decide on how to represent = faith. 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