From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #27 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Tuesday, March 28 2000 Volume 03 : Number 027 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] Cranky Review of Hero Wars RE: [RQ-RULES] Cranky Review of Hero Wars [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 RE: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 SV: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars Crank-ups Re: [RQ-RULES] Cranky Review of Hero Wars [RQ-RULES] Stealing ideas from HW for RQ RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:00:50 +0100 (BST) From: Graham J Robinson Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Cranky Review of Hero Wars On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Peter Maranci wrote: >Just took a look at the three chapters of Hero Wars at Issaries.com. > > >SLAPDASH REVIEW OF HERO WARS > You said it. I would go through and correct all the mistakes you made, but there seems little point, and anyway this is supposed to be a Runequest list... Needless to say, having actually run Hero Wars, it is not quite the monster that Peter states. It does, fair enough, allow people to roll dice rather than role play, but according to my battered old RQ book, so does runequest. If, and currently its a big if, I convert to HW, I'll just do what I did with the similar rules in RQ - ignore them. Graham - -- Graham Robinson. Dept. Computing Science, Glasgow. gjr@dcs.gla.ac.uk http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~gjr Never trust an operating system. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:07:12 +0100 From: "Hibbs, Philip" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Cranky Review of Hero Wars "Cranky" is right. >"Excuse me, Narrator, will the Narrator Character in this episode >of this series receive Hero Points for killing my Hero?" Where the hell does this come from? >A d20 system. Oh boy. Now *that's a leap forward... So they should have invented a new kind of dice? Would you prefer D1000? >Character creation -- a hundred-word essay? That's one of the three character creation systems. >Keywords -- "a quick description of the character's role in >society". Like Fighter. Magic-User. Thief. Wow. Can I have >a duel-keyword half-elf Fighter/Magic-User? Not quite... >Skills: Let me see if I have this straight. Numbers represent skill >levels but the Mastery rune modifies this somehow? Okay, I'll give you that one, the skill notation is a little abstruse, but it's ok when you get to know it, it doesn't take long. >Looks like unlike RuneQuest, in Hero Wars characters have >limited skill sets -- not all will possess all abilities, unless >there's an unstated base chance for success for non-keyword skills. HW has an unlimited skill list. A skill can be anything you want that the referee allows. Overly general skills will suffer an improv penalty when used, and may be more difficult to raise. Anyone can have any mundane skill, though, it's only magical abilities that you have to be a devotee of the right god or a member of the right school to get. >Personality Traits -- "there will be occasions when the >narrator will ask you to roll a personality trait directly". That's >why it's called roleplaying -- die rolls, so you don't have to! "Your hated emeny enters the bar, the man who killed your parents. Roll your 'Vengeful' to see if you reflexively react, but you may use your 'self-control' ability to stop yourself." >Dependants -- "Dependents never raise their abilities; they are >always meant to be frail". You no longer need worry about those >annoying NPCs, pardon me, "Narrator Characters" -- they're not >really equal to you any more. This refers to kid brothers, and folks like that, not enemy bad guys. >Hero Points = Experience Points. Now that's cutting-edge >game design! What's next -- Armor Classes? Excuse me, >I meant "Armor Keywords"? If you don't like experience points, then this is a fair criticism. >If you don't write in a reference to a new element acquired >by your character the GM may remove it by fiat. Yup. You have to pay for benefits acquired with Hero Points. Philip Hibbs http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:20:50 +0100 From: "Ashley Munday" Subject: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 Peter Maranci wasn't impressed with the general mechanics behind Hero Wars... generally nor am I. However, I have been rather taken by the magic system. I'm now in the process of trying to lift the magic system from Hero Wars and splat it on top of RuneQuest. Has anyone else been thinking along these lines? More to the point, anyone actually got anything working? Cheers, Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:40:04 -0500 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 I am just waiting for the boxed set to reach the selves. Stancliff >-----Original Message----- > Peter Maranci wasn't impressed with the general mechanics > behind Hero Wars... generally nor am I. However, I have > been rather taken by the magic system. I'm now in the > process of trying to lift the magic system from Hero Wars > and splat it on top of RuneQuest. Has anyone else been > thinking along these lines? More to the point, anyone > actually got anything working? > Cheers, > Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:02:39 -0500 From: Tal Meta Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 Bob Stancliff wrote: > > I am just waiting for the boxed set to reach the selves. Same here. My current campaign is running with some grafted concepts (a variation of the mastery/bumping rules) but most things will wait until I can see the whole product. - -- talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine ICQ - 12594453 AIM - talmeta Homepage - *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:42:28 PST From: "Leon Kirshtein" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 >Bob Stancliff wrote: > > > > I am just waiting for the boxed set to reach the selves. >Tal Meta wrote: > >Same here. From things I heard and read I am not optimistic but willing to take a look at the finished product. I am mostly waiting for additional Glorantha info which I can adapt to my campaing. Leon Kirshtein www.geocities.com/leonbk/ "No good deed shall go unpunished." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:41:02 +0200 From: "Erik Sieurin" Subject: SV: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 To your first question: yes. To your second question: no :-P And BTW, I second Phil's opinions - except for one thing. I strongly agree with Peter as regards the 100 word essay method of creating characters. It's actually a wonderful idea, but won't work with most new players. - ----- Ursprungligt meddelande ----- Från: Ashley Munday Till: Skickat: den 28 mars 2000 17:20 Ämne: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #26 > Peter Maranci wasn't impressed with the general mechanics behind Hero > Wars... generally nor am I. However, I have been rather taken by the magic > system. I'm now in the process of trying to lift the magic system from Hero > Wars and splat it on top of RuneQuest. Has anyone else been thinking along > these lines? More to the point, anyone actually got anything working? > > Cheers, > > Ash > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:48:59 +0200 From: Julian Lord Subject: [RQ-RULES] Hero Wars Crank-ups Peter Maranci : > A d20 system. Oh boy. Now *that's a leap forward... Heh !! Take a look at D&D 3E this summer : the new version of D&D is going to be about *85 - 95%* compatible with Hero Wars. (!!) > Character creation IMO one of the best features of the game. > Dependants -- "Dependents never raise their abilities; they are always > meant to be frail". You no longer need worry about those annoying NPCs, > pardon me, "Narrator Characters" -- they're not really equal to you any > more. And how is this different from AD&D? Beats me. Remember how annoying > Spiderman's Aunt May always was? Didn't you wish that some supervillain > would crush her like an overripe wrinkly irritating grape? Yeh ... what *really* PISSES me off is Robin Laws' parallel between RPGs and TV. I mean, I haven't watched TV for about 15 years because I hate it so much, and new Glorantha is supposed to be run like Star Drek TNG ??!! F*ck that !! > GMs have a huge amount of power in this system! That's something else that I can't stand about HW. I mean, the GM is ulyimately omnipotent in *every* RPG. Why f*cking encourage it !!?? I personally really *like* it when my players decide to wrest control from me. In HW, it'll be *that* much harder to do ... > There are something called AP (obviously not Armor Points), which can be > "bid", and have a "normal lending mechanism". But the thing that I REALLY REALLY LOATHE is that every conflict HAS to be binary. The Good Guys vs. the Bad Guys. Man, I hated that even in primary school when everyone was supposed to be either a cowboy or an indian. And how are you going to resolve three-way, or four-way conflicts in HW ?? How will you handle it if two PCs want to kick each other's balls in, and PC n° 3 wants to stop both of them ? What if some character suddenly defects to the other side ? Etc .. I can see that all this is *possible* under the APs system ; but who needs the headache ?? The basic conflict resolution system is screwed IMO. Like Spirit Combat on a grand scale, and that is the WORST part of RQ IMHO. I mean seriously, exactly *how* long will it take to get bored of the HW resolution tables ?? Five minutes ? twenty ?? ____________________________ Leon Kirshtein : > From things I heard and read I am not optimistic but willing to take a look > at the finished product. I am mostly waiting for additional Glorantha info > which I can adapt to my campaign. That's more or less how I feel. Julian Lord *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:47:09 +0100 From: Michael Cule Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Cranky Review of Hero Wars In message <200003281435.JAA18847@sunspot.tiac.net>, Peter Maranci writes >Just took a look at the three chapters of Hero Wars at Issaries.com. There's a separate (one-page) summary of the game mechanics on the site if you can find it. None of your criticisms touch the bits I have problems with. Read the AP betting mechanic and prepare a fresh batch of bile... - -- Michael Cule *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:44:33 -0800 From: "Timothy Byrd" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Stealing ideas from HW for RQ [Peter Maranci wrote a "Cranky Review of Hero Wars"] Personally, I think HW has a couple question marks hanging over it, but it's not so much the game system as attitudes. Over time, I think Glorantha has become less and less friendly to newcomers. Maybe it's the result of spending years and years debating successively more obscure points in the Cult of Greg, but the long time members of the club tend toward impatience newcomers. Aren't newbies somewhere on Nick Brooke's list of things he hates about Glorantha? Whatever the reality, I just believe that if I printed out, say, twenty successive Glorantha Digests, the contents would probably drive off most people I know. Actually, I think there are some neat ideas in HW. I'd like to adapt some of the them to RQ. [I'm only going to loosely follow Peter's post] On characters creation: yes, some (many?) people won't like the essay system, but there are two other methods. The "pick ten abilities" and the quick start. I really like the quick start. One of the things I miss from D&D is the ability to create a player character in a very short time. On character classes: I think Peter has a point that the beginning keywords and the skill sets that go with them are similar to character classes from D&D. And that's a bad thing? Even in our current RQ game, we tend to refer to various characters as if they were members of a class - this one is a shaman, this one is a sorceress/thief, this one is a dwarf, this one is a trickster, this one is a paladin. Having basic templates of skills for various character types lets you get started quickly while having beginning characters that are distinct from each other. The skills start at varying levels. Depending on the power level of the campaign you are running, you might say, "Okay everyone, out of the skills on your list, you can have one at 90%, two more at 75%, four at 50%, and the rest are at 40%. Make your choices." During play a character can pick up abilities outside his 'character class' by spending experience points. (BTW, the base level for skills you don't have is either 0 or 6 (30%?) depending on the skill.) On experience points: The RQ game I'm in now uses them. Although I can't recall ever playing in a game where it happened, they eliminate the concept of hunting for checkmarks. The mechanism we've been using is that each experience point allows one to make one experience roll against a skill used during the adventure, or to take a one percent increase in the used skill with the lowest rating. I really *like* the experience/hero points in HW. You can use them to buy up your skills (no dice rolling). You can use them to buy some tangible reward obtained during the adventure ("cementing"). Or you can be spend them during play to bump up a dice roll during a critical situation. The overall fairness of it is wonderful. If someone finds a major magic item, "paying for it" with an experience point doesn't seem unfair. Imagine this situation: You go through an adventure and your character acts like a team player, supporting the others and doing some key things to resolve the situation, e.g. taking out one of the big baddies in a dramatic scene. Meanwhile there is another character - only present for half of the adventure - running around being annoying, actually endangering some of the other PCs. Purely by accident this character stumbles on a powerful magic item and a cache of gold and takes them without telling the rest of the party. In standard RQ, the second character possibly only survived because of some fudging on the part of the GM. At the end of the adventure, both characters get equal chances at improving used skills via experience rolls. If the foolish character either used more skills or started out at a lower level, then he probably benefits more. A skill master who did his best and roleplayed well, can easily wind up with *nothing* by missing all his experience rolls. If the party standard for loot is to share and share alike, the annoying character may even wind up with better magic geegaws, besides the big item he found. It may just be the luck of the dice, but it isn't fair, and I can't tell you how effing frustrating a situation like this would be. In HW, the characters would get varying numbers of hero points based on their participation. The players could spend them to keeps the goodies they found, to boost skills used in the adventure, or to learn unrelated abilities at a higher price. (and you actually get improvements, not just the chance to roll to see if you get them) The foolish character probably had to spend a couple points just to stay alive, as well as spending a point to keep the big item. On D20's, masteries, and target numbers: D20s don't bother me that much, since I can't distinguish between skill levels of 86% and 87% anyway. The masteries are a decent attempt to deal with skills over 100%. In RQ what happens when two master warriors at the 250% level slug it out? In HW, their masteries cancel, and they fight each other like 50% vs. 50%. In RQ, what happens when someone with a skill of 250% attacks someone at 50%? In our current game, the master gets a better chance to get a special success, but it isn't necessarily that overwhelming. In HW, the master gets two bump-ups on the success of any given exchange of blows. So a fumble would bump to failure(1) to success(2). A failure or better would be bumped to a critical success. I think there are a couple glitches in the system and that it could be improved, but it does deal with high skill levels better than RQ. This has some potential. The ability to trade 100% of skill in a given blow for an extra level of success would be great. - -- Tim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #27 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.