From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #68 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.imagiconline.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, July 19 2000 Volume 03 : Number 068 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #67 Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha SV: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali [RQ-RULES] Mostali Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:30:24 -0700 From: " " Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali DCFitch1 : >I guess I just have a hard time with gunpowder technology in a >pseudo-classical/bronze age world. Even if it is only fantasy, there should >be some logic involved. .... And fortunately there is. Mostali are not just short humans, they are a completely different species with no common cultural origins or shared ancestry whatsoever with humans. In fact they considerably predate humanity and have developed their technology is isolation deep underground since before the coming of men into the world. So logicaly speaking it makes perfect sense for them to have all sorts of strange and unusual technological secrets. BTW, Gloantha isn't a Bronze Age world as such. True, the common metal is Bronze, but iron is known. Gloranthan cultures are in many cases far more advanced than any Bronze Age cultures on earth, but are limited to using Bronze simply because Iron is very rare and hard to come by in most places. Simon Hibbs - --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:07:27 -0700 From: "DCFitch1" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali Hmmm.....sounds like a Bronze Age world to me. At least, later-brone age. As for the advent of things like machinery/factories and gunpowder....these advancements are so far removed from a late-bronze or early-iron age that it makes little sense, despite your attempts to make it logically fit. Anymore hairs you need splitting? Dan F. - -----Original Message----- From: To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.imagiconline.com Date: Monday, July 17, 2000 8:33 AM Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali >DCFitch1 : > > >>I guess I just have a hard time with gunpowder technology in a >>pseudo-classical/bronze age world. Even if it is only fantasy, there should >>be some logic involved. .... > >And fortunately there is. Mostali are not just short humans, they are a >completely different species with no common cultural origins or shared >ancestry whatsoever with humans. In fact they considerably predate >humanity and have developed their technology is isolation deep underground >since before the coming of men into the world. So logicaly speaking it >makes perfect sense for them to have all sorts of strange and unusual >technological secrets. > >BTW, Gloantha isn't a Bronze Age world as such. True, the common metal is >Bronze, but iron is known. Gloranthan cultures are in many cases far more >advanced than any Bronze Age cultures on earth, but are limited to using >Bronze simply because Iron is very rare and hard to come by in most places. > > >Simon Hibbs > > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Before you buy. > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:26:02 +0100 From: "Ashley Munday" Subject: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #67 Dn Fitch he say: "I guess I just have a hard time with gunpowder technology in a pseudo-classical/bronze age world." Dwarves with iron grenades and shooters have been around since Griffin Mountain at least - as many Troll Adventurers found out. Ash *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:50:04 -0400 From: Joseph Elric Smith Servant to Arioch Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali it is a bronze age world only because e bronzed can be minded directly from the gods bonze, and the fact that iron has to be purified by the various cult in order to be used with magic. Iron isn't al that rare, but more of a religious thing, that and several other cults use different metal like lead for trolls and copper for elves. Ken DCFitch1 wrote: > Hmmm.....sounds like a Bronze Age world to me. At least, later-brone age. > As for the advent of things like machinery/factories and gunpowder....these > advancements are so far removed from a late-bronze or early-iron age that it > makes little sense, despite your attempts to make it logically fit. Anymore > hairs you need splitting? > > Dan F. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:10:17 +1000 From: "Grawe, Philipp" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali > > Hmmm.....sounds like a Bronze Age world to me. At least, later-brone age. > As for the advent of things like machinery/factories and gunpowder....these > advancements are so far removed from a late-bronze or early-iron age that it > makes little sense, despite your attempts to make it logically fit. Anymore > hairs you need splitting? Yes, but Glorantha was created by Gods and dragons and demons, Bronze-age earth wasn't (without wanting to get into a theological argument). People say over and over "Real world analogies to Glorantha only work up to a point". You have to take the whole picture, the whole background into account. Just saying "I don't like dwarves with guns, it spoils the fantasy feel" makes you seem a bit D&Dish. Mostali aren't dwarves in the D&D or Tolkein sense. Philipp. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:28:30 -0700 From: Trent Smith Subject: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha First off, a couple of folks have kindly "explained" that Gloranthans use bronze because it's the bones of dead gods mined from the ground, not because Glorantha is culturally parallel to Bronze Age Earth. Methinks you've got your cause-effect relationship backwards: bronze (as opposed to, say iron) is the metal that Gloranthans mine from the earth because the designers wanted Glorantha to have a Bronze Age feel! This is stated pretty clearly in the RQ2 rulebook -- they liked the idea of an ancient-world atmosphere, differentiated from the "standard" late-medieval fantasy milieu, and thus made up a reason why Gloranthans use a bronze-analogue metal. Even if someone pulls forth some unpublished Staffordiana showing that this idea dates back to 196x, I'll still maintain that it was done to differentiate Glorantha from run-of-the-mill fantasy of the day (Tolkein and his rip-offs). On Mostali: DC Fitch dislikes the Gloranthan portrayal of Mostali as an industrialized Communist utopia, and people are blasting him for it. I say, consider this: this portrait of the Mostali was created in an age when Glorantha was much more free-wheeling place than it is now; when Greg and the folks at Chaosium would throw in stuff like Hungry Jack, Ducks, John Carter of Mars, Redbird, Grotaron, Apple Lane, the Xeno-Gang, the Swallow spell, the Cult of the Black Sun, and Baron von Moosehsunchen because they thought it was cool, or funny, or both. Mostali as sexless gunpowder-using factory workers fit this mold very well. Now, as Greg has gotten older and more serious about Glorantha, he's attempted to go back and make these things seem logical and "real" and integrate them into a proper Gloranthan framework (and those he can't, he Gregs out of existence). Sometimes this works, just just as often it's a losing prospect -- can call them durulz and give them mythologies and treat them as seriously as you want, but sooner or later you're gonna have to admit that it's still Donald Duck (the proverbial Duck test)! Therefore, to better understand the Mostali, see them for what they are -- a deliberately anachronistic joke. You'll appreciate them more than by trying to take them seriously and justify them in a "real-world" (be that Earth or Glorantha) sense. And when all's said and done, if you don't like your dwarfs as jokes, by all means change 'em -- I promise I won't tell Greg on you! Happy Gaming, Trent *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:44:02 +0100 From: Philip.Hibbs@tnt.co.uk Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha Well said, Trent! That was nicely put together. Basically, my take is this: Glorantha is what it is, and pretty much always has been. Mostali have always had gunpowder, Lunars have always been a moral grey area, and there's always been a huge whirlpool in the middle of the world. If you don't like it, that's fair enough, then either change/ignore the bits you don't like, or use a less outrageous fantasy world. Philip Hibbs http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:43:40 +0300 From: mikko.korhonen@myy.helia.fi Subject: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha A question that has been in my mind for a while: What is the overall level of technology in Glorantha, Malkioni culture? They are civilized, yes. But how about technology: use of paper, for example. Do they use paper, books, scrolls? Hoe about oil lamps or lanterns. Deluxe RQ had rules for oil lamps, but the setting was Mythic Europe, if i remember correctly. Genertela: Crucible of Hero Wars stated that minerals and oil existed in Glorantha, but they were not used due the lack of interest/technology. Maybe the strong influence of magic has slowed and/or prevented major technological inventions (exept Mostali, of course). But then, there is Leonardo the Scientist in God Forgotten islands, who practises somewhat weird technology- style magic of his own. Sorry if my post is a bit of subject, maybe i should take it to Glorantha Digest. Cheers, Mikko *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:47:24 -0700 From: "DCFitch1" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha A bit D&D-ish? We give far too much credit to Gygax and not enough to Tolkien, Howard and the oral traditionists who passed along the world's myths. Without these folks there would be no D&D and no grandly inspired authors like Stafford. At any rate, all of your points on the Mostali are well taken. I guess I am just too used to fantasy worlds/cultures which try to fit in a pseudo-medieval period, most of which have contradictions of their own. Thanks for the input. Dan Fitch *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:25:57 +0100 From: Philip.Hibbs@tnt.co.uk Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali / Bronze-Age Glorantha >A bit D&D-ish? We give far too much credit to Gygax and not >enough to Tolkien, Howard and the oral traditionists who passed >along the world's myths. Without these folks there would be >no D&D and no grandly inspired authors like Stafford. Greg claims not to have been inspired by any other fantasy authors, and was surprised to find out (I guess in the early seventies) that other people were writing about fantasy worlds. Philip Hibbs http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:53:07 +0200 From: "Erik Sieurin" Subject: SV: [RQ-RULES] Re: Mostali I always find assertions that Glorantha is a "Bronze Age World" silly and useless. I have _never_ seen one case where Gloranthan Bronze does have _any_ of the physical problems associated with RW bronze; you can do anything with it you can do with iron, it seems (including chainmail). Furthermore, as Simon said, the cultures of Glorantha (official Glorantha back since ed 2) are inspired by anything from Stone Age (Balazar?) to Middle Age (the West?). The Orlanthi, the first main culture for PCs during the years is quite obviously based on Celts/Anglo-Saxons/Vikings whatever have you during the Iron Age, and the second main culture, the Praxians, seems Stone Age to me. Whatever of the various high cultures that have inspired the Lunars is mots popular this year, they all where well into Iron Age. There is no splitting hairs here, just stating facts. I know this is all based on a short quote from 2nd ed (it is in the closet; I don't have the time to dig it out) but that quote simply doesn't work. And although the instigator of this trend (bows respectfully in his direction) is perhaps different, I have never understood why people always get so miffed by _firearms_, when there are hundreds of other anachronisms thrown in, either on purpose (Bob's Bisonburgers, anyone?) or by mistake. Erik Sieurin, who _loves_ the industrialised, firearmed Mostali, since they are not boring seen-them-hundred-times-before Gimli clones like the dwarves of many other fantasy worlds. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:03:40 +0300 From: mikko.korhonen@myy.helia.fi Subject: [RQ-RULES] Mostali Hi all! I have to admit, that at first glance mostali seemed quite ankward. I mean \"living modules of the World Machine\". After all, Tolkien model dwarves seemed easier to understand. But after a while, i got kind of used to them. And after reading first book in the Weis&Hickman Deathgate cycle, i kind of started liking the idea of machinelike- firearm-using-little-maniacs. Can\'t remember the english name for the book right now, but it presented quite an interesting view in the \"non- Tolkien\" dwarf culture, that is quite alike with the way i have imagined Gloranthan mostali should be. This is the way i have presented mostali in my game, at it suits me and my players just fine! Mikko Mikko Korhonen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:31:49 -0700 (PDT) From: dabick@excite.com Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Mostali > Mikko Korhonen >. And after reading first book in the Weis&Hickman > Deathgate cycle, i kind of started liking the idea of machinelike- > firearm-using-little-maniacs. Can\'t remember the english name for the > book right now, but it presented quite an interesting view in the \"non- > Tolkien\" dwarf culture, that is quite alike with the way i have > imagined Gloranthan mostali should be. This is the way i have presented > mostali in my game, at it suits me and my players just fine! I believe that Weis/Hickman book is Dragonwing. In it the dwarves were not the robot Mostoli that seem so in vogue for Glorantha. Also, they are not the Tolken/D&D dwarves either. While they work at the Machine doing functions they no longer understand the purpose for; they have intelligence, reasoning, and emotions. The Dragonwing dwarves were a poor, isolated, subjected, and all most a forgotten people. They went to work to turn valves and monitor gauges, even though the meaning was lost generations ago. I'm guessing that Mikko has taken away the poor and subjected part and made them a healthy culture that can support it's self. Add the aptitude of technology over magic, and you have a good and unique race. One that is playable. These are the dwarves I prefer for something different. Something I can use. As for adding Technology with Fantasy, I don't have a problem. My balance it to sharply reduce the magic of the technology culture. They become so fixed on technology that their magic is a support system for the technology. The spells they do use would be the ones to add programming and near life to machinery. Maybe magic that makes it simple to shape and fit fine metal pieces. Most likely not magic a player would be interested in. All this is of course just IMO. Jim Bickmeyer _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #68 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. 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