From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.ient.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #88 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Saturday, September 23 2000 Volume 03 : Number 088 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] New magic item creation rules [RQ-RULES] New magic item creation rules RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: New magic item creation rules Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: New magic item creation rules RE: [RQ-RULES] Was Re: New magic item creation rules RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:27:48 -0400 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] New magic item creation rules > I agree, but my question was about PCs vs. OPPONENTS. In > my experience, PC parties rarely go up against the mundanes > you describe. My thoughts are that military outfits which > have their own smiths would also have their own enchanter. > The enchanter's 'job' would be to enchant the armor/weapons > of the company. > Rich Allen It is certainly true that the Lunar College of Magics is making items for the army, but I figure that due to the small supply compared to the high demand, these items tend to go to the very best units and the combat leaders, with an appalling number going to the higher officers who rarely see combat and therefore rarely use them (it's a status thing). POW gains in RQ are difficult. If you get more than 5 a year you are either in combat constantly or breaking the bell curve on POW checks. This limits the effect that one person can have on a large following unless he takes years to build strength. > I don't really see the problem. RQ3 already has plenty of ways to >make '+1 swords'. For example : >1. Enchant a sword with a Bladesharp matrix... >2. Bind a Bladesharp spirit into the sword... >3. Bind a Magic Spirit into the sword and teach it Bladesharp... >4. Enchant the sword with a Bladesharp matrix... > You could probably think of other ways to do it too, perhaps using >crystals embedded in the pommel. > I like the idea that magic is a product of conscious energy, which is >pretty much paradigmatic in RQ. All these methods make sense within... >Simon Hibbs I agree fully with Simon on these points. This is using the RQ rules the way they were designed, to get a great deal of effectiveness leveraged through a modest expense of POW. The designers considered each additional POW invested to add effectiveness greater than the sum of points. Because of the usefulness of spirit binds, I find it very hard to allow any Spirit Magic matrix larger than about 3 POW. It might be the only enchantment spell that some people know, so they use what they have, but most people can get a Binding enchantment spell instead (or in addition) and they would use it to have a greater personal gain. This does often require the aid of a Shaman or Priest to acquire the proper spirit for the bind, but this whole question has been hinging around Spirit Magic specifically (though it could apply to sorcery as well). If you want to get practical, the person blowing all of this POW to Imbue would probably be better off dumping all of the points into Strengthening enchantments. > Yowza. That's pretty steep. Wouldn't Imbue (2) and Bladesharp 3 (3) >work equally well? >Tal Tal has a good point. If you are going to allow Imbue at all, it is probably written a little too expensively. The geometric progression for variable spells isn't needed, and the number of doses and charges for temporary items could be raised as well. After all, the person making these consumable items to sell, has to get enough uses to bring the price down to a range that people can pay. In my game, 1 POW is valued between 1000 and 1500L, and this is applied to all enchantments and magic items. If the effect gained doesn't match the cost, then no one will buy the item and no one will want to make one (simple economics). As an example; this makes small Thunderstones very rare and large ones very expensive (about 2000L). The excessive price reduces the market for the item so the supply is small also. This is a shame since they are very useful objects. My friend Glenn made the following counter-argument with some suggested variations... bob Stancliff ********* > One thing I've always wished RQ had was some way to create > magic items other than matrices and enchantments. Stuff like > a +1 sword, with a permanent Bladesharp 1 effect. I have a problem with this whole concept. One of the things which made the Machine City so terrible was that it was doing just this thing. The problem with a permanently activated Bladesharp seems to be that it draws magic out of the cosmos (as opposed to a normal matrix, which gets its power from the MP of the user). Since the item is taking and never recharges naturally, it depletes the natural magical resources of the cosmos. Make enough of these, and the cosmos will run down. There are a few possible solutions to this: 1) Some items are inherently magical. Dragonnewt skin appears to make excellent armor (though the books don't say how) largely because Dragonnewts are just naturally magical. In their lives they imbue the skin with magical power, and even after it is separated from them it continues to be magical. Some minerals are also inherently magical, esp. those of divine origins. 2) Enchanted items with permanent POW sacrificed into them receive magic from a living soul, and this then seems to generate a permanent magical aura. However, this is relatively minor, and generally doesn't allow changes on the rest of the cosmos without further additional MP. 3) Some items have spirits in them. These then provide the living soul which powers the item, rather than it drawing power from Glorantha itself. Example: a wand with a magic spirit. 4) A god could create an item. In this case, the power is not being drained from Glorantha, but is supplied by a god who, in exchange, gains power in some other way (the geases observed by Humakti reinforce Humakt's place in the cosmos, for example). In fantasy literature, most of the magic items fall into at least one of these categories. Stormbringer was alive, and Excalibur perhaps as well. Mithral mail was made from a rare and potent metal. Some "magic" items are creations of uniquely skilled craftsmen, who either create things which are alive or just create things which are so wonderful they surpass anything the rest of us can conceive. Certainly there is much room in the system for items which are simply so well made that they do extra damage, or protect better, etc. A critical enchant and/or craft might allow this. This would mean that the item created surpassed its creator's predictions. I would say that if someone wants to create a permanent Bladesharp, for example, that person should have to first obtain the finest possible weapon, probably made of some metal more magical than ordinary bronze. (Enchanted bronze might do the trick, but no one alive knows the spell). Even then, some POW donor should be required to activate the magic inherent in the item, either by a mortal giving up one or more POW or the blessings of a god (perhaps obtained through a Hero quest). Charged magic is a different matter. Dwarves already create charged items, using the Store Spell sorcery. Second edition allowed magic potions, which essentially held the MP for the spell in stasis until the potion was ingested. Temporary magic items don't create the waste of universal magic which permanent ones do, and some principles should be developed for this. In many cases, such as healing plants, this will be from using materials which are themselves inherently magical. There are also apparently saint's relics: items which continue to have spiritual/magical power due to the past association with a particularly POW-erful living soul at one time. Creation of these, and rules governing them, would be GM's option. Glenn Kirkconnell *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:15:25 -0700 From: " " Subject: [RQ-RULES] New magic item creation rules One thing I've always wished RQ had was some way to create magic items other than matrices and enchantments. Stuff like a +1 sword, with a permanent Bladesharp 1 effect. Rather than add some entire new system, I've just worked out the following addition to the rules. It's just preliminary, so any feedback would be much appreciated. I'd particularly like suggestions for ways to use spell combinations to make interesting new items... ********************** Magic Item Creation for RuneQuest - Spirit Magic I. New Spirit Magic Spell: Imbue Enchantment (2-point ritual) This spell costs two points of permanent POW to cast. It allows the spirit magician to impart a permanent spell effect to a material object. A successful Enchant skill roll is also required to cast the spell. II. Creating a magic item: The caster must prepare the item by successfully casting Imbue Enchantment. Once successfully prepared, the caster places the essence of a spirit magic spell known to him/her into the prepared item by casting the spell using POW instead of magic points. Multiple spells can be cast into the object while it is being enchanted, but once the full set of enchantments is complete no additional enchantments can be added. Each casting roll must also succeed against the caster's Enchant skill. The item must be appropriate for its purpose and the spell. Shimmer imbued into a sword will protect only the sword, not the wielder. It would be more appropriate to cast Shimmer into a cloak or suit of armor. These rules apply to temporal spells only -- see section IX, Instant Spells, for information about instant spells. Example: Cirur the Sage wishes to create a magic sword. His Enchant skill is 75%, and his chance to cast is 80%. He casts the Imbue Enchantment ritual (expending two points of POW), on his sword, rolling under his chance to cast and his Enchant skill. He then casts Bladesharp 1 on the sword (expending an additional point of POW), again rolling under his (now-reduced) chance to cast and his Enchant skill. When finished, he has a sword which has a permanent Bladesharp 1 effect for a cost of 3 POW. III. Variable Spells: Variable spells are handled in the same manner as normal spells, except that each "level" of the spell must be separately cast using POW. Thus, to create a +3 sword (permanent Bladesharp 3 effect), the magician would need to successfully cast Imbue (for 2 POW), then Bladesharp 1 (1 POW), then Bladesharp 2 (2 POW), and finally Bladesharp 3 (3 POW). If all rolls were successful, the magician has created a sword with a permanent Bladesharp 3 for a cost of 8 points of permanent POWer. To complete the list, a +1 item costs 3 POW, +2 costs 5 POW, +3 costs 8 POW, +4 costs 12 POW, etc. IV. Combination spells/effects: It is possible to create unusual effects by combining spells which are not normally combined. These results can vary, although it may be possible to create a ritual which produces reproducible results after much research. Results are determined by the GM. For example, combining Light with Fanaticism might produce a helmet which glows and causes Fanaticism in the wearer; or, a helm which causes Fanaticism only in darkness, or in the light; or some other reasonable effect. NOTE: I'd like to add a lot more spell combination possibilities. V. Quality: The quality of the item influences the chances of success. The chance of success is increased by +1% for each doubling of the value of the item, to a maximum of 20%. Example: if a dagger would normally cost 5sp, one created using a total of 10sp of materials would add a +1% chance to the caster's total chance of success; +20sp would add +2%, etc. Items which are free have no modification for success, barring GM's discretion. VI. Drawbacks: An imbued item cannot be re-augmented by the same spell. A +1 sword will have no benefit from a later casting of Bladesharp 1; Bladesharp 2 is necessary to give it a total of +10% to hit and +2 damage, but it will return to +5%/+1 damage after the spell expires. Also, an imbued item is vulnerable to damage. It must make a resistance roll against any damage inflicted on it past 50% of its total armor points or else the magical effect is destroyed. VII. Temporary/Perishable Items: Perishable/expendable items can also be imbued with spells. Some of this lore borders on alchemy. The procedure is the same as in Section II, except that 2d4 worth of charges or doses may be created per time the spell is cast, and variable spells need only be cast once at the highest level desired. Instant spells may be used in this type of enchantment. Example: For a cost of 2 POW (Imbue) plus 4 POW (Heal 4), 2d4 doses of Heal 4 potion can be created. Material components must be supplied -- matter is not created. Quality rules apply. VIII. Charged Items: Items may be imbued with charges that are expended rather than permanent effects. The cost to create the item is POW equal to the maximum number of charges that it may hold, plus 2 POW for the initial imbuing. The procedure to charge the item is the same as for temporary spells (i.e., 2d4 charges per time that the spell is cast). It may also be possible to recharge a charged item by a ritual requiring a successful Enchant roll, and then casting the spell to be charged into the item six times for each charge created. Note that this is still a ritual, requiring a minimum of 1 hour. Any charges created beyond the maximum capacity of the object are lost. Instant spells may be placed into an appropriately charged item normally. Another advantage of charged items is that casting time is 1 SR. IX. Instant Spells: Except for Temporary and Charged items, non-temporal spells cannot be imbued normally. It may be possible to create magic items with the permanent effect of an instant spell -- for example, a magical bandage that Heals anyone who wears it -- but the creation of such items is a Heroic feat, and at a minimum would cost ten times normal POW cost to create. X. Attack Spells: Attack spells have an effective POW for the purpose of opposed resolution of the creator's POW at the time that the initial Imbue Enchantment was cast (before the initial 2 POW was expended). XI. Conditions: All conditions which may be imparted to enchantments may also be imparted to Imbued objects. - ->Peter - -- Peter Maranci peter@maranci.net Pete's RQ Page!: http://www.maranci.net/rq.htm - --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:04:30 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Re: New magic item creation rules > >To complete the list, a +1 item costs 3 POW, +2 costs 5 POW, +3 > >costs 8 POW, +4 costs 12 POW, etc.... > > I like this. Particularly, it is costly enough that, if it were > dropped into a campaign, it would be safe and not immediately > unbalance the system. Please don't take this as an attack on Brad, it isn't. I'm just wondering why so many people feel that making magical items common place in RuneQuest would somehow unbalance the system? In a game where it is possible for the PC's to have 500+ percentiles in skills, and even in some cases change reality (hero quests), why would the fact that every other soldier had a +1 sword make the game unbalanced? It seems to me that balance is an issue of whether or not the PCs are more (or less) powerful than their opponents; so adding a system that would make everyone, PCs or not, more (or less) powerful would keep the balance the same as it was. At least, that's how it seems to me. Any contradictory thoughts?? Have I completely missed the point? Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:18:14 +0100 From: Philip.Hibbs@tnt.co.uk Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Re: New magic item creation rules >Right, that's an aspect of RQ that always interested me -- creative >use of spirits, matrices, and conditions seems to have all sorts of >possibilities The problem with "creative use of" the rules is that a set of rules that is simplified for ease of use may inadvertently allow things that should not be possible, for example there was a problem with M:TG where three cards in combination could both generate infinite mana and kill all the other players instantly. If you have a game world that the rules are trying to simulate (such as, for example, Glorantha), you need to ask yourself "is this possible in the world", otherwise you'd end up with a trans-Genertelan telepostal service. Philip Hibbs http://www.snark.freeserve.co.uk/ Opinions expressed may not even be my own, let alone those of any organisations, nations, species, or schools of thought to which I may be affiliated. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:23:20 -0400 From: "Bob Stancliff" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Was Re: New magic item creation rules >> Bob >> Actually the number of people who can make their own magic >> items in Glorantha may be less than 5 or 10%. Player >> characters are almost always in this group, if possible. > Ken > Personally, I think Bob is off with this number. Its been my > experience that if the character has a high enough Ceremony, > and what he considers to be a couple of excess POW points, > it's really not much of a problem to knock out some type of > enchanted item. And if its true for Characters, why then its > equally true for the NPCs. First off, adventurers are uncommon characters, on a par with Rune Levels. They invest their treasure in self improvement to a degree that exceeds most other professions. Look around you... the common person doesn't maximize their potential, they get into habits or ruts and do the same comfortable things day after day. Self improvement is a foreign concept, and investing for the future is almost as rare. Second, no one can create a magic item with just a Ceremony skill. You really need a ceremony of at least 35% and an Enchant of at least 40%. While a successful adventurer or a Rune Level can afford this training, the common man is working for a living six or seven days a week and may even have a fear of magic and enchanters. They may know a few simple spells, but the making of items is rather rare. Also remember that most theists are more likely to put 'spare' POW into one-use spells than an item. Rune Levels represent only about 3 to 4% of the population and free-lance adventurers are about as rare, so saying 5 to 10% still seems a good guess. Sure, you might want to increase these to match your game concept, but I certainly wouldn't go as high as double. 15% maybe. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #88 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. 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