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Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V3 #101
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RuneQuest Rules Digest    Monday, October 16 2000    Volume 03 : Number 101




RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

[RQ-RULES] Magical 'Energy'
[RQ-RULES] Visibility
[RQ-RULES] Re: Masswarp
RE: [RQ-RULES] To change a mount or not
RE: [RQ-RULES] Visibility
Re: [RQ-RULES] Visibility
[RQ-RULES] Masswarp and perpetual motion
RE: [RQ-RULES] Masswarp and perpetual motion
Re: [RQ-RULES] Masswarp and perpetual motion

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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:40:32 -0700
From: "Simon Hibbs" <simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com>
Subject: [RQ-RULES] Magical 'Energy'

Rich Alle :n

>  I'm not sure I understand that one.  I have read about many different
>types of real-world metaphysical beliefs, and several of them include the
>idea of permanent enchantments in the form of love tokens, voodoo dolls,
>medicine bags, etc.

I'm not arguing against permanent magical effects.

>              ...Some believe magic is powered by the body, some believe
>magic is powered by the cosmos.  And what does that have to do with
>RuneQuest and it's magic rules??  <smile>

I'm not aware of any traditional systems of magic that think of magic
interms of energy in this way. By and large they tend to think of
magic as being a process. To me, saying that something is powered by
magic is like saying that a car engine is powered by physics. The
concepts of body energy and cosmos that are commonly understood today
are modern inventions. Do Kabbalists believe their magic is 'powered' in
this way? No. How anout Zoroastrian Magi, or Egyptian priests? To them
such ideas would be equaly alien. A magician is powerfull in the sense
that a King of a great nation is powerfull, not in the sense that an
Energizer battery contains a lot of power.


Simon Hibbs


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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:41:08 -0700
From: "Simon Hibbs" <simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com>
Subject: [RQ-RULES] Visibility

Brad Furst :

>How do you interpret the antecedents of the pronouns?  Does "whether or not 
>_they_ have magic cast upon _them_" refer to the normal weapons or to the 
>creatures?

What's actualy happening here? A non-material creature that cannot normaly
interact physicaly with the material world in rendered visible. So, it's
visible, but non-material. Hence weapons, enchanted or not, will not
harm the creature since it is still immaterial.

Wraiths are a special case because they can interact physicaly with the
world. They are not purely spiritual creatures, as indicated by their
stats.

>Why would a spell caster cast Visibility and under what 
>circumstances?  Would NPC's use this against the character party?

No shaman should lack the Visibility spell. It allows the discorporate
shaman to manifest, so that he can cast spells at corporeal enemies,
communicate with his friends and even attack corporeal enemies in spirit
combat.


Simon Hibbs


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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:41:51 -0700
From: "Simon Hibbs" <simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com>
Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: Masswarp

Andrew :

>Put the container on one end of a seesaw,
>with a counterweight on the other.
>Have a person or a mechanism alternately open
>and close the container.
>Seesaw goes up and down each cycle.

Put a tilt switch on the container that rocks
open and closed with the motion of the see-saw.
One push to set it going, and it keeps pumping
away forever.


Simon Hibbs


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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:03:30 -0400
From: "Bob Stancliff" <stanclif@ufl.edu>
Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] To change a mount or not

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  What I have been trying lately is, if the mounts are similar enough there
will only be a slight reduction of skill.  Once the character is familiar
with the new mount it is at their primary ride skill.
  Jim Bickmeyer
I subtract the modifier and apply a conversion of 1/2 or 1/3 before adding
the modifier back in.  This is basically the same technique I use for
languages and weapon groups.
Bob Stancliff


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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:26:27 -0400
From: "Bob Stancliff" <stanclif@ufl.edu>
Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Visibility

> The spell named Visibility has been interpreted differently
> depending on with whom I am gaming.  The point of difference
> comes at (I am quoting from RQ3):
> Brad Furst

	The primary purpose of Visibility is so that a discorporate shaman can
reenter and interact with the physical world as a disembodied spirit.  As
a disembodied spirit, no weapon can affect him, whether it has spells cast
or not.  Nor does it matter whether the shaman has any other spells cast
on him... they will not make him corporeal.  This same rule applies to any
spirit that does not have any physical form, such as ghosts, magic
spirits, spell spirits, etc., though ghosts get visibility as a natural
ability and do not need the spell.  I also allow this spell to affect
allied spirits tied to an object, not bound in an animal.
	Many spirits do coalesce some form of substantive body when they enter
the physical plane, such as wraiths, elementals, nymphs, chonchons, and
others.  These get no use from visibility and have other ways to enter the
world.
Bob Stancliff


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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:00:05 EDT
From: SPerrin@aol.com
Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Visibility

In a message dated 10/16/00 9:47:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com writes:

> 
>  What's actualy happening here? A non-material creature that cannot normaly
>  interact physicaly with the material world in rendered visible. So, it's
>  visible, but non-material. Hence weapons, enchanted or not, will not
>  harm the creature since it is still immaterial.
>  
>  Wraiths are a special case because they can interact physicaly with the
>  world. They are not purely spiritual creatures, as indicated by their
>  stats.
>  
>  >Why would a spell caster cast Visibility and under what 
>  >circumstances?  Would NPC's use this against the character party?
>  
>  No shaman should lack the Visibility spell. It allows the discorporate
>  shaman to manifest, so that he can cast spells at corporeal enemies,
>  communicate with his friends and even attack corporeal enemies in spirit
>  combat.
>  

So you are saying that the Visibilized shaman can cast spells but can't 
physically attack? Since the shaman cannot attack with spells if he is not 
Visible, we have to assume that Visibility adds something more than just a 
visual component to the situation. Visibility more or less "anchors" the 
spirit to a spot and makes it part of the "real" world. 
    Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the same stuff that anchors 
the image can affect it in other ways. Magical spells cast at it, like 
Disruption, work. So it is not a jump to assume that magical enchantments on 
weapons would also work. The question is: how do they work?
    I see two possibilities. Either just the enchantment works, such as the 
+4 from a Bladesharp, without benefit of actual weapon damage or damage 
bonus, or the enchantment serves to allow the entire weapon damage to count.
    If just the enchantment works, I would say that armor and protective 
spells on the visibilized target do not work, as the spirit is an extension 
of the soul, or is just the soul, of the target. If the entire weapon works, 
I would give the target the benefit of a Spirit Screen or Spirit Shield spell 
as Protection against the blow.
    One good question is what a Fireblade spell does if only the enchantment 
works. Myself, I would say that the points of the Fireblade count like points 
of Bladesharp.

Just two bolgs comment from one of the progenitors of this quandry.

Steve Perrin, who is still fussing over how spirits work...

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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:27:19 -0400
From: Andrew Barton <AndrewBarton@compuserve.com>
Subject: [RQ-RULES] Masswarp and perpetual motion

>  This assumes that magical energy is a finite commodity, I tend to think
of
it like light; it's everywhere, ready to be used if you know how, and in
practice it's inexhaustible.

Have you read 'The Magic Goes Away'?

The more serious problem is the effect a magical source of unlimited
mundane energy would have on the world.  A Masswarp-powered device would be
quicker and cheaper to build than a watermill and far more portable - the
effects on the world would be similiar to the invention of the steam
engine.

What I'm arguing here is that Masswarp is a much more powerful spell than
it looks like at first sight - out of line with any of the standard spirit
or divine spells of RQ2 or RQ3.  In the hands of ingenious players it may
disrupt game balance.  In the hands of ingenious NPCs it would have major
effects on the economy (and probably warfare as well).

> If you tie a string to the heavy object, the two become one object as far
as this rule is concerned.

I was reading your post in that sense.  Hence the 'hook-and-eye'
arrangement to move the string into and out of the container, switching the
spell effect on and off.  The hook is clearly a separate object while it's
not connected to the ring.  It doesn't matter whether it is part of the
object when it is linked, the device works either way.

Andrew

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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:09:01 -0600
From: "Rich Allen" <rico@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Masswarp and perpetual motion

> Have you read 'The Magic Goes Away'?

  Yeah, great story, I like all of Niven's stuff.  But that's not RuneQuest.
Hmm, I wonder if magic is really defined in any way at all in the RuneQuest
rules.  Aside from Glorantha references, does anyone know?  I'll have to
check the rules when I get home.  If it's left up in the air, I'd guess
anything goes.

> > If you tie a string to the heavy object, the two become one
> > object as far as this rule is concerned.
>
> I was reading your post in that sense.  Hence the 'hook-and-eye'
> arrangement to move the string into and out of the container,
> switching the
> spell effect on and off.  The hook is clearly a separate object while it's
> not connected to the ring.  It doesn't matter whether it is part of the
> object when it is linked, the device works either way.

  I'm not able to picture how this would work...  Even if a pole with a hook
is able to grab a ring inside the container on its own, how does it unhook
itself and start the whole cycle over again?  If the pole and hook require a
person to make it work then it's not a perpetual motion machine.

  Actually, the bottom line is how much a GM allows ANYTHING is his/her game
to be abused.  Even if you rule that a perpetual motion machine is possible
with this spell, you can decide that spell spirits will seek out and destroy
any such device, along with it's creators.  Or you can say there is a cult
that believes such devices will destroy the world and so _they_ seek out and
destroy them, etc.  If you play in Glorantha, I'm sure there are existing
methods for taking care of 'god-learner' type devices.
  Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the spell and in my game it
hasn't presented any problems at all.  The players appreciate anything that
can help them in their adventures and the game is that much more enjoyable.
YGMV.

Rich Allen


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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:31:45 EDT
From: SPerrin@aol.com
Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Masswarp and perpetual motion

In a message dated 10/16/00 2:10:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rico@mindspring.com writes:

> 
>    Yeah, great story, I like all of Niven's stuff.  But that's not 
RuneQuest.
>  Hmm, I wonder if magic is really defined in any way at all in the RuneQuest
>  rules.  Aside from Glorantha references, does anyone know?  I'll have to
>  check the rules when I get home.  If it's left up in the air, I'd guess
>  anything goes.
>  
>  
For most of my magic using games, including RuneQuest, I assume that magic is 
a renewable resource. If you look at my new rules, I specify that you can tap 
into the ambiant magic of an area and not spend mana points (magic points), 
but it takes longer. In general terms, this is tapping into the "magic 
points" of Gaia.
    I also play that an intense use of magic, probably in excess of what even 
high powered RQ players would use in a day, can temporarily drain an area of 
its magic. I generally use this as a plot device, with magic-based empires 
suddenly finding problems keeping their flying fortresses in the air, etc., 
because they have too many of them and there is not enough mana to keep them 
going.
    I work this as a tenure situation. Already established spells have first 
dibs on the local mana--they have become part of the fabric of the local 
time/space. Latecomers, even though they are created in the exactly the same 
way, don't have precedence and fail. Thus an area may have many ancient 
artifacts of powerful magic, but they cannot be duplicated, no matter how 
knowledgeable and powerful the person(s) trying to do so are. 
    Something like the perpetual motion machines mentioned before may have 
been used, but they preclude any more being devised.

Steve Perrin, always looking for a good world hook


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