From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.ient.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #64 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, June 6 2001 Volume 04 : Number 064 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS RE: [RQ-RULES] Gloranthan Illusions Re: [RQ-RULES] Gloranthan Illusions [RQ-RULES] Re: we have changed Resist Damage [RQ-RULES] Gloranthan Illusion [RQ-RULES] Magic [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:23:57 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Gloranthan Illusions > Michael wrote: > Maybe Greg proposes that all Gloranthan magic is really a > form of (Gloranthan) illusion? It's almost all temporary, > but real. Only things like healing last, and Greg seems to > think that healing is much less common that RQ made it seem. > All in all, sounds right given his Trickster nature ... But > it really strikes me as much too powerful, at least for RQ. > Perhaps HW, with its more cinematic feel, I can more easily > absorb this kind of magic simply as "feats", and bypass the > distinction between spell and illusion? ... RQ Illusion could be interpreted by this framework if you required that ALL of the spells Always be used at one time in the correct intensities. Then creating anything dangerous would require so much intensity, that the player would deserve it to be dangerous. Greg is certainly correct in his view on healing from a story viewpoint. Healing should have been much less common. It should have been restricted only to specific healing cults and never taught to outsiders. That way game play would more closely match the stories where a Healer is essential for any Warband. My players have so much healing magic that they can run through their hit points at least twice, and I can only remember two instances that they took a Healer anywhere, and then it was for her Treat Disease skills. In HW the referee gets to assign difficulty penalties for all magic attempted, so if you tried to create a Glamour of a Basilisk, you would have to have a very good skill to replicate the magical nature of the animal desired. I would assign penalties based on size attempted, magical nature, and sheer dangerousness. This is where game balance comes back. It is rather arbitrary, but you can't let the players get too much reward for no effort. I developed the opinion years ago that the 'Underlying Reality of Glorantha' is that all magic is an imposition of Will to change a small piece of the world, and that any framework for focusing concentration can be turned into a style of magic. Everything else is self-delusion, smoke and mirrors, the means to the end. The recent introduction of mysticism has done nothing to change my basic view. The final mystic revelation is that while our minds were born within the world, they can grow to be independent of it. At this point one becomes like a True Dragon... able to exist outside the world without being influenced by the Universal Sea of Chaos. But that's just an opinion... only an illuminated trickster shaman knows for sure. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:45:31 +0100 From: "Meirion Hopkins" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Gloranthan Illusions There's a section on Gloranthan Illusions in Storm Tribe (p67, with primary reference to Eurmal). It essentially boils down to is: On Glorantha, Illusion means Glamour or Temporary Reality. Eurmal is weird and can make Illusions/Realities with a shorter duration than the rest of the universe, by tapping into the power which originally created the universe. Donander's manifestation of the Illusion rune is through the 'Entrancement' affinity - which primarily affects the hearing and sight ('sing in another language', 'animate puppet's face'). No other god(dess) has the illusion rune AFAIK (haven't finished the book yet), so it seems that for Orlanthi at least, Illusions are very rare (can't say about other pantheons or systems of magic). I could never quite get a grasp on the sorcery illusions in RQ, but since it never came up in play it didn't particularly bother me. So, to answer the question "Why bother with anything but Illusions?", I'd answer, "Because they're so damn rare!" Cheers Meirion - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael C. Morrison 8-543-4706" To: Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 8:34 PM Subject: [RQ-RULES] Gloranthan Illusions > *** Reply to note of Mon, 04 Jun 2001 10:01:19 -0400 (EDT) > *** by runequest-rules@lists.ient.com > > Bob Stancliff writes: > > More important, Greg doesn't address the specific issue > >of overlaying normal objects with a contradictory glamour and > >how this will react. With the transition to HW he may have > >invalidated all the material on illusions ever written, and > >completely changed the nature of the spells or feats. > > Indeed, from an RQ point of view, why would you ever learn any other > kind of spell than illusion? "I need a fire ... here are some > illusory sparks to start one!" No need for Ignite. Extinguish > becomes an illusory spray of water or dirt or wind or ... The > illusion was real (for a while), so the fire is really out. "Hey, > my sword isn't sharp enough ... an illusion of a *really* sharp sword!" > Bladesharp only lasts a short time, so too the illusion ... etc. > > What about more powerful spells like Teleport? Just a brief illusion > of doing so. How about an Elemental? I can imagine it, so it > appears and acts (no need to Command it, it's my creation). Expand > your mind, and you can create an illusion of anything, for a while. > > Maybe Greg proposes that all Gloranthan magic is really a form of > (Gloranthan) illusion? It's almost all temporary, but real. Only > things like healing last, and Greg seems to think that healing is > much less common that RQ made it seem. All in all, sounds right > given his Trickster nature ... But it really strikes me as much too > powerful, at least for RQ. Perhaps HW, with its more cinematic feel, > can more easily absorb this kind of magic simply as "feats", and > bypass the distinction between spell and illusion? ... > > Michael > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael C. Morrison IBM Software Solutions Phone (408)463-4706 > Data Replication Silicon Valley Laboratory FAX (408)463-4763 > Lotus Notes ID: MCMORRIS at IBMUSM55 IBMLink: MORRISON@TORIBM > Internet ID: MMORRISON@VNET.IBM.COM or USIB47H4@IBMMAIL.COM > IBM Mail Exchange: USIB47H4 at IBMMAIL or USIB4MCM at IBMMAIL > X.400 Address: G=mcmgm; S=morrison; P=ibmmail; A=ibmx400; C=us > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:58:53 -0700 From: Brad Furst Subject: [RQ-RULES] Re: we have changed Resist Damage At 04:49 PM 6/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >On a side note: we have changed Resist Damage so that it is applied >last instead of first. Armor takes the brunt of the blow and Resist Damage >tries to negate the remainder. Hooray! This is much more sensible and useful. I'm surprised that this wasn't more universally matched when this ran by the list a month or two ago. Brad Furst esoteric@teleport.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 21:03:23 -0400 From: Andrew Barton Subject: [RQ-RULES] Gloranthan Illusion > Indeed, from an RQ point of view, why would you ever learn any other > kind of spell than illusion? My understanding is that there are no general-purpose illusion spells that allow you to create anything you can think of. Whether that's right or not, the more complex the object created, the stonger the spell that is needed. > What about more powerful spells like Teleport? Just a brief illusion of doing so. Can't do it like that. You're creating things, not perceptions. There is the Puppeteer Troop's Switch Places spell, I'm not sure how that fits in here. > How about an Elemental? I can imagine it, so it > appears and acts (no need to Command it, it's my creation). Illusions are nothing to do with imagination. If you create an elemental, that does -not- guarantee that you can control it. > But it really strikes me as much too powerful, at least for RQ. Well, in RQ you should follow the principle of comparing the power of any new spell with the existing spells of the most powerful god in the area. In this case your guide would probably be the Trickster spells in Gods of Glorantha. > Perhaps HW, with its more cinematic feel, > can more easily absorb this kind of magic simply as "feats", and > bypass the distinction between spell and illusion? ... This does seem to be an area where the HW rules are much truer to Greg's vision of Glorantha. Andrew *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:03:49 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: [RQ-RULES] Magic > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:35:52 -0400 > From: Robert Stancliff > I can't decide whether I would be happier > with modifying RQ to be > more like HW, or making a Champions supplement to > bridge between the > differences of the two Chaosium games. > We have recently permitted Initiates to > regain their rune magic once > per year on High Holy Day. If I could get more > player support, I would > allow priests to have a rune point pool to cast > spells from a list of > learned spells. They would learn the spells > individually, and each would > go on the list of effects they can ask for at the > time of casting, then the > POW goes into the rune point pool. One of the Suggestions for RQ 4 was Worship Ceremony Priests get Acolytes get Initiates get Normal / weekly All spells 1 point back nothing back seasonal Ditto All spells 1 point back High Holy day Ditto Ditto All spells back. So a priest can regain all his spells in a week, an acolyte in a season, and an initiate in a year. If rapid recovery of spells is vital, and enough initiates [100 IIRC] are available, a priest can schedule more worship ceremonies in a week at the weekly rate. Adam *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 01:48:30 +0100 From: David Ford Subject: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever >This does seem to be an area where the HW rules are much truer to Greg's >vision of Glorantha. I apologise for what can be perceived as a negative post here. But, I felt the great need to say that I do not share in Greg's vision of Glorantha. I liked the Glorantha of RQ2 better, and don't like Hero Wars much. My love of RuneQuest is because it models small skirmishes well, swords, spells, tactics, are important. Lots of fantasy literature deals with combat, and I like a solid rules system that handles combat fairly and doesn't leave it in the hands of storytellers. Many people love Hero Wars and thus my opinion is a minority one, however I know that not everyone is sold with Hero Wars, and they still hanker for multiracial adventurer parties (as in Star Trek) fighting the good fight against chaos, darkness, or whatever the local evil maybe. David *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:06:32 +1000 From: "Jim Lawrie" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever > >This does seem to be an area where the HW rules are much truer to Greg's > >vision of Glorantha. > > I apologise for what can be perceived as a negative post here. But, I felt the > great need to say that I do not share in Greg's vision of Glorantha. I liked > the Glorantha of RQ2 better, and don't like Hero Wars much. My love of > RuneQuest > is because it models small skirmishes well, swords, spells, tactics, are > important. Lots of fantasy literature deals with combat, and I like a solid > rules system that handles combat fairly and doesn't leave it in the hands of > storytellers. Many people love Hero Wars and thus my opinion is a minority one, > however I know that not everyone is sold with Hero Wars, and they still > hanker for > multiracial adventurer parties (as in Star Trek) fighting the good fight > against chaos, darkness, or whatever the local evil maybe. > > David Here bloody here. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:09:45 -0400 From: "Leon B Kirshtein" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever Ditto Leon Kirshtein (No good deed shall go unpunished.) - ---- David Ford wrote: > I do not share in Greg's vision of Glorantha. > I liked > the Glorantha of RQ2 better, and don't like Hero Wars much. My love > of > RuneQuest > is because it models small skirmishes well, swords, spells, tactics, > are > important ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 07:42:24 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Brian Newman Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever I've never played in Greg's Glorantha, so I don't know what it's like. :) Here's the way I see it: since Greg's writing is usually presented as if it's "from the world" (i.e. someone in the world wrote it), I treat it as accurate for my Glorantha as history textbooks in high school are for our real world -- they generally give you an idea of what went on, but they're always skewed and sometimes just totally wrong. On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Leon B Kirshtein wrote: > Ditto > > Leon Kirshtein > (No good deed shall go unpunished.) > > ---- David Ford wrote: > > I do not share in Greg's vision of Glorantha. > > I liked > > the Glorantha of RQ2 better, and don't like Hero Wars much. My love > > of > > RuneQuest > > is because it models small skirmishes well, swords, spells, tactics, > > are > > important > > ___________________________________________________________________ > To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, > all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:33:10 -0600 From: "Stephen Posey [TurboPower Software]" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever David Ford wrote: > > >This does seem to be an area where the HW rules are much truer to Greg's > >vision of Glorantha. > > I apologise for what can be perceived as a negative post here. But, I felt the > great need to say that I do not share in Greg's vision of Glorantha. I liked > the Glorantha of RQ2 better, and don't like Hero Wars much. My love of > RuneQuest > is because it models small skirmishes well, swords, spells, tactics, are > important. Lots of fantasy literature deals with combat, and I like a solid > rules system that handles combat fairly and doesn't leave it in the hands of > storytellers. Many people love Hero Wars and thus my opinion is a minority one, > however I know that not everyone is sold with Hero Wars, and they still > hanker for > multiracial adventurer parties (as in Star Trek) fighting the good fight > against chaos, darkness, or whatever the local evil maybe. For me the truth is that while I appreciate all the work that has been put into Glorantha and I find it generally amusing to read about, I don't much like gaming in it: something about it just doesn't "feel right" to me (completely esthetic and personal, YMMV). At the same time I LOVE the RQ (and other BRP derived) rules, somehow they "make sense" to me and I can work with them almost unconsciously (again a strictly esthetic evaluation). The rules rule! ;-) Stephen Posey slposey@concentric.net *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:55:30 -0700 From: "Steve Perrin" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever Stephen's paen of praise for the rules causes me to inquire to the list. I am thinking of taking the rules I've done for "RQ4.5" which many of you have already and self-publishing them with added specs for new monsters, some common treasures, more background in the magic descriptions, etc. I'd probably do it as an ebook from the website I intend to put together over the summer. Questions for the list Would you pay a reasonable price for a download of more expanded rules, even though you have the core rules in hand already (or can get them easily from the listmeister)? Do you have any suggestions for a name for the rules, since I can't call them RuneQuest? Thanks, Steve Perrin - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Posey [TurboPower Software]" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] RQ Forever > I appreciate all the work that has been > put into Glorantha and I find it generally amusing to read about, I > don't much like gaming in it: something about it just doesn't "feel > right" to me (completely esthetic and personal, YMMV). > > At the same time I LOVE the RQ (and other BRP derived) rules, somehow > they "make sense" to me and I can work with them almost unconsciously > (again a strictly esthetic evaluation). > > The rules rule! ;-) > > Stephen Posey > slposey@concentric.net > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #64 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. 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