From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.ient.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #70 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Tuesday, June 12 2001 Volume 04 : Number 070 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS [RQ-RULES] Back to Illusions (was: Combat models) [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #68 [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest [RQ-RULES] Concept comparisons [RQ-RULES] Spirit combat is broken and always has been. Re: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest [RQ-RULES] Martial Arts (was Not-RuneQuest) RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:08:35 -0700 From: Simon Hibbs Subject: [RQ-RULES] Back to Illusions (was: Combat models) Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Back to Illusions (was: Combat models) Robert Stancliff : > Unfortunately, in my opinion, Hero Wars makes it impossible for 1000 >normal fighters to kill Harreck since his skill is so much higher, they will >never succeed at an attack. Action points don't matter if your opponent has >more than two mastery on you. Even one full mastery is almost >insurmountable and requires the most extreme luck. On the other hand, it's entirely conceivable that Harrek could take on 1000 normal fighters, and should win. Therefore RQ is the game system that fails the test, not HW. I'm not doing RQ down, I still use the BRP game system for a lot of my games, but it can't do everything. On Illusions, It's my understanding that the RQ Illusion spells were based on how Greg conceived of Illusions working in Glorantha - i.e. that they create a temporarily real effect. I'm afraid I don't agree with Michael C. Morrison's objections. Gloranthan (or indeed RQ) Illusions can't create illusions of things not being there, for example. Also the RQ illusion rules can create supremely sharp swords, illusions of elementals, etc as he describes, but to do so is very expensive. Dedicated magic, such as summon spells or Bladesharp, are invariably more efficient. Simon Hibbs *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:30:06 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: [RQ-RULES] RE: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #68 > Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:45:56 -0700 > From: "Steve Perrin" > Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] New BRP game--A possible name! > > Actually, as I was working at a mundane job > today, it occurred to me that we > have all missed the obvious name, Ruin Questers. > It may be too close, I'm > going to check with some folks who are closer to > the subject. > > And for those who were wondering and haven't seen > by previous posts on the > subject, I have asked Hasbro and been told that > all role-playing is done > through WotC. I asked WotC and was told that they > haven't yet made any plans > for RuneQuest... Ryan Dancy did state on the Open Gaming list that he didn't want to see any of the non d20 RPG systems Wizards owns or controls back in print because of the theory of network externalities. Which may leave you with something like Basic Roleplaying: Fantasy. Adam *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:10:28 -0400 (EDT) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest First, it should be noted that the same folks who brought us the re-release of Big Rubble are soon to release a big cult compendium, which will include everything in Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, and a lot of other cults that have only appeared here and there. The stuff is RQ2 and does suffer from the rampant cult standadization (wherein every single cult HAD to have a "Rune Priest" and a "Rune Lord", even if it didn't make any sense), but it could still be a problem. Second, there would be the matter of getting approval of any sort for Glorantha material in the new game. I don't know what current politics are around The Greg, so thats up in the air as far as I'm concerned. As for actual rule systems, here are some things that I've decided in my years of running RQ3 (indeed, from the very year it was released): Fatigue and encumbrance are BROKEN BADLY! Whatever it was meant to do, it's a bookkeeping pain in the ass and doesn't have all that much effect, anyway. Replace it with something simple, like a CON roll, a reduction in SR for carrying so much ENC vs. STR, etc. Keeping track of YET ANOTHER sliding number is too annoying--and I design synthetic genes and do statistical analysis for a living, so don't accuse me of the inability to track detail or of innumeracy. I play games to blow off steam, not to be reminded of work. The RQ "martial arts" skill is a crock. It certainly fails reality checks. Board-breaking is a stunt. Improvement in the ability to do damage unarmed is no more (or no less) a matter of skill or knowledge than the ability to do damage with an edged weapon. Don't believe me? Then you've never tried actually CUTTING a difficult target with a weapon that has an actual edge. There's a lot of skill involved in just getting the edge at the right approach--no less than necessary in doing a good punch or kick. Eliminate it. Instead, all unskilled (based off default) attacks (armed or unarmed) would have a damage penalty. Spirit combat is broken and always has been. The concept is great, but execution simply doesn't work. However, a lot of RQ fans are wedded to the contest of POW mechanism. How many of them would want to replace ordinary combat with a contest of CON? I would much rather see POW used as a "spiritual" STR/CON (use INT for "spiritual" DEX/SIZ) and then have spiritual combat skills. These could be improved by experience in areas where one is prone to being attacked by spirits. Eliminate the "one-use" divine magic rule and replace it with a widespread house rule: "one-use" divine magic can be renewed annually by initiates and seasonally by acolytes. The Sorcery system in the RQ3 rules had good basic ideas, but Free INT didn't work. Use another way to limit the sorcerer--depending upon his skills. "Psionics" is just another form of magic--indeed, the word was coined in the 20th century as a "scientific" term to use for what "primitives" called "magic" in our own world. Weapon damage suffered from one major flaw. A fairly big character would squash everything flat by virtue of rolling multiple dice even with the smallest weapons. Likewise, the fixed bonuses to certain weapons (kukri) made them ueberwaffen. An alternative: STR, SIZ, and weapon all add (or subtract) a fixed amount. Cross-index on a table to get the die or dice to roll. This can be handled in two simple ways: The number can be the average damage or the maximum damage. Things like Bladesharp would still add a fixed amount to the rolled damage. This is no more difficult than looking up the effect of STR/SIZ on a table right now. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:20:15 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: [RQ-RULES] Concept comparisons > On the other hand, it's entirely conceivable that Harrek > could take on 1000 normal fighters, and should win. > Therefore RQ is the game system that fails the test, not HW. There is a huge difference between could win, should win, and always win. I am saying that unless the foe is better than 10w2, just take it off the board. There is absolutely no chance of killing him... numbers don't matter, only skill. With the possible exception of the Resistance table, and therefore Spirit combat, RQ normally leaves an opening for anyone to get in one lucky shot that might do significant harm. Whether this can be leveraged into a win against great odds is another issue, but Hero Wars just escalates until a weak player has precisely 0% chance. I still don't like this application of 'super RQ' and the additional power gaming that results and affects style of play. Heroic deeds are as much an issue of agreeing on terminology as it is the doing of 'impossible' deeds. When I see characters unharmed from 30 point hits, and dealing 35 to 40 points, I think that is a pretty 'heroic' danger level. Many have attacks from 150% to 200% due to spells, and that is pretty 'heroic'. Sure it is possible to do better in special cases, but that doesn't make you more 'heroic' or negate other's 'heroic' abilities. How good do you really have to be to hero quest? If you believe "Strangers in Prax", the story of Capt. Barran, then it doesn't take much at all. He can deal some good damage, but he is only moderate in the other areas. Going through the sample chaos 'heroes' in "Lords of Terror", any Rune Lord has a decent chance. The narrative ends with a moderately young Storm Khan, Oddi the Keen, defeating and slaying Ralzakark, who is ancient, has many magic abilities, and is generally considered a 'hero' or far beyond mere mortals. I get the feeling that all of Greg's 'world shaping heroes' are rather normal rune lord/priest type characters in the basic abilities, but by hero questing, they have gained control over fundamental aspects of reality which they use to perform their famous deeds. This has been modified slightly by the stories based on HW which allow player abilities such as Tall or Strong to become super powers in their own right. This draws the game quite a way into the realm of four color comics and out of the more gritty fantasy fiction. It might get more silly at times, but it doesn't have to. I guess all of my opinions are chasing each other in circles, but don't reach any goals or conclusions. I am only a little more satisfied now than I was ten years ago, except that I have been playing regularly for eight years now. I understand hero questing better, but so much contradictory material has been generated, it is hard to pick the direction I want. Writing material is no easier now, since that is contrary to my basic personality, and the desire for 'balance' still haunts my decisions and actions. Bob Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:37:31 -0700 From: Brad Furst Subject: [RQ-RULES] Spirit combat is broken and always has been. >Spirit combat is broken and always has been. The concept is great, but >execution simply doesn't work. However, a lot of RQ fans are wedded to >the contest of POW mechanism. How many of them would want to replace >ordinary combat with a contest of CON? I would much rather see POW used >as a "spiritual" STR/CON (use INT for "spiritual" DEX/SIZ) and then have >spiritual combat skills. These could be improved by experience in areas >where one is prone to being attacked by spirits. Remind me, then, what you use for the spirit combat skill % of an elemental and of other spirits commonly sought for capture and binding. Brad Furst esoteric@teleport.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:54:56 -0700 From: "Steve Perrin" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest 1. I have no intention of doing Glorantha stuff. That's Greg's baliwick, and I'd rather not be identified with it. Nice world, but it's someone else's pond. 2. Totally agree on Fatigue and Encumbrance. Since your suggestion ties directly in with mine (and I think you helped develop it a few years ago) I don't think there's much need for further discussion there. 3. Interesting take on Martial Arts. I was hard put to develop a Martial Arts skill back when I first did it for RQ3, since just improving skill did the same thing. These days, however, I've tied it into my "number of successes" system so that extra successes in it can be used for damage or additional defense, etc. So I'll keep it if only because some players are enamored of the idea of being able to "do" martial arts. 4. I think my current Spirit Combat rules are similar to what you are saying, but I haven't developed any specialized skills. Nice thought, and it would take care of a lot of ambiguities. And a spirit combatant would have to chose whether he is going for damage, or capture, or repelling, or whatever... 5. Divine Magic, agreed. 6. I think my take on sorcery is sufficiently different from RQ3 that this statement doesn't really affect it. 7. Spirit magic was often described in psionic terms. 8. Perhaps the Intensity table in the Sorcery chapter could be used for this? So you would add a STR bonus (say 3) with a weapon value (say 8) and a Bladesharp (say 2) and get 13, which means you roll 1d20 and 1d6? This uses my system of taking the value of the intensity as the midpoint of the dice thrown. On this subject, something to throw open to the list. I did my table based on the idea that the shallowest curve is best. So I go for the minium number of the largest possible dice to get the highest value permitted. Thus, in the above exampe I used 1d20 and 1d6, getting a 2-26 range, rather than, say, 2d8 (for the weapon value) + 1d6 (for the Strength bonus) + 1d4 (for the bladesharp), getting 4-26 range and a much deeper curv e. The odds of an average roll of 13-17 on the four dice is much greater than the average of 13-15 on the two dice. Which do people think is a better idea, both from the viewpoint of authenticity and from gameplay? And do you think this gives too high a number and the intensity value should be the maximum effect? Thus, the max total would be 13 and I would roll a d10 and a d3 or a d8, a d3 and a d2. Thoughts? Steve Perrin - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:10 AM Subject: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest > > > First, it should be noted that the same folks who brought us the > re-release of Big Rubble are soon to release a big cult compendium, which > will include everything in Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, and a lot of > other cults that have only appeared here and there. The stuff is RQ2 and > does suffer from the rampant cult standadization (wherein every single > cult HAD to have a "Rune Priest" and a "Rune Lord", even if it didn't > make any sense), but it could still be a problem. Second, there would be > the matter of getting approval of any sort for Glorantha material in the > new game. I don't know what current politics are around The Greg, so > thats up in the air as far as I'm concerned. > > As for actual rule systems, here are some things that I've decided in my > years of running RQ3 (indeed, from the very year it was released): > > Fatigue and encumbrance are BROKEN BADLY! Whatever it was meant to do, > it's a bookkeeping pain in the ass and doesn't have all that much effect, > anyway. Replace it with something simple, like a CON roll, a reduction in > SR for carrying so much ENC vs. STR, etc. Keeping track of YET ANOTHER > sliding number is too annoying--and I design synthetic genes and do > statistical analysis for a living, so don't accuse me of the inability to > track detail or of innumeracy. I play games to blow off steam, not to be > reminded of work. > > The RQ "martial arts" skill is a crock. It certainly fails reality > checks. Board-breaking is a stunt. Improvement in the ability to do > damage unarmed is no more (or no less) a matter of skill or knowledge > than the ability to do damage with an edged weapon. Don't believe me? > Then you've never tried actually CUTTING a difficult target with a weapon > that has an actual edge. There's a lot of skill involved in just getting > the edge at the right approach--no less than necessary in doing a good > punch or kick. Eliminate it. Instead, all unskilled (based off default) > attacks (armed or unarmed) would have a damage penalty. > > Spirit combat is broken and always has been. The concept is great, but > execution simply doesn't work. However, a lot of RQ fans are wedded to > the contest of POW mechanism. How many of them would want to replace > ordinary combat with a contest of CON? I would much rather see POW used > as a "spiritual" STR/CON (use INT for "spiritual" DEX/SIZ) and then have > spiritual combat skills. These could be improved by experience in areas > where one is prone to being attacked by spirits. > > Eliminate the "one-use" divine magic rule and replace it with a > widespread house rule: "one-use" divine magic can be renewed annually by > initiates and seasonally by acolytes. > > The Sorcery system in the RQ3 rules had good basic ideas, but Free INT > didn't work. Use another way to limit the sorcerer--depending upon his > skills. > > "Psionics" is just another form of magic--indeed, the word was coined in > the 20th century as a "scientific" term to use for what "primitives" > called "magic" in our own world. > > Weapon damage suffered from one major flaw. A fairly big character would > squash everything flat by virtue of rolling multiple dice even with the > smallest weapons. Likewise, the fixed bonuses to certain weapons (kukri) > made them ueberwaffen. An alternative: STR, SIZ, and weapon all add (or > subtract) a fixed amount. Cross-index on a table to get the die or dice > to roll. This can be handled in two simple ways: The number can be the > average damage or the maximum damage. Things like Bladesharp would still > add a fixed amount to the rolled damage. This is no more difficult than > looking up the effect of STR/SIZ on a table right now. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:11:53 EDT From: MurfNMurf@aol.com Subject: [RQ-RULES] Martial Arts (was Not-RuneQuest) - --part1_6b.15b17a58.2857eda9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/01 1:19:03 PM Central Daylight Time, Bryan commented on the general brokeness of the Martial Arts rules as written. I've read this kind of stuff over the years, and it seems as if there are a lot of folks out there with similar feelings. My exposure to Martial Arts being strictly limited to my own Couch Potato observations of Kung Fu Theater, as well as a habitual watching of "Big trouble in Little China" almost everytime it comes on TV, don't really allow me to comment on whether the MA Rules could stand up to a reality check. Being overly vague in their execution, I'm guessing they probably couldn't. But then what IS Martial Arts Reality, _really?_ The Rules give the MArtist double rolled weapon damage with a MA success. Would a MArtist _really_ be inflicting any more damage with a strike than someone who's brawling in a plain old bar fight, or not? What is it exactly that set MAs and plain old Natural Weapons apart, if not for the MArtist's ability to somehow strike more effectively? I'd heard previously about this or that MArtist having his hands-n-feet registered as Deadly Weapons. If he's not delivering any more damage with his strikes than your average guy, what is so Deadly about these Deadly Weapons? Does the training behind MAs then reflect an increased ability to aim blows? Are MArtists somehow able to imcrease their chances of delivering Special and Critical Hits in a way that isn't tied to their skill % like everyone else's are? Is it all just (Egads!) PR and mystique then? BTW, I believe that Cyberpunk's different Martial Arts styles each give bonuses or minuses to a list of different manuevers, to be performed using fist, kick, headbutt, etc, as opposed to the way RQ allows the doubling of damage across the board. As always, _Illuminate me_ gang! -Ken- - --part1_6b.15b17a58.2857eda9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  In a message dated 6/12/01 1:19:03 PM Central Daylight Time, Bryan
commented on the general brokeness of the Martial Arts rules as written.
  I've read this kind of stuff over the years, and it seems as if there are
a lot of folks out there with similar feelings.
  My exposure to Martial Arts being strictly limited to my own Couch Potato
observations of Kung Fu Theater, as well as a habitual watching of "Big
trouble in Little China" almost everytime it comes on TV, don't really allow
me to comment on whether the MA Rules could stand up to a reality check.
Being overly vague in their execution, I'm guessing they probably couldn't.
  But then what IS Martial Arts Reality, _really?_ The Rules give the
MArtist double rolled weapon damage with a MA success. Would a MArtist
_really_ be inflicting any more damage with a strike than someone who's
brawling in a plain old bar fight, or not?
  What is it exactly that set MAs and plain old Natural Weapons apart, if
not for the MArtist's ability to somehow strike more effectively?
  I'd heard previously about this or that MArtist having his hands-n-feet
registered as Deadly Weapons. If he's not delivering any more damage with his
strikes than your average guy, what is so Deadly about these Deadly Weapons?
  Does the training behind MAs then reflect an increased ability to aim
blows?
  Are MArtists somehow able to imcrease their chances of delivering Special
and Critical Hits in a way that isn't tied to their skill % like everyone
else's are?
  Is it all just (Egads!) PR and mystique then?
  BTW, I believe that Cyberpunk's different Martial Arts styles each give
bonuses or minuses to a list of different manuevers, to be performed using
fist, kick, headbutt, etc, as opposed to the way RQ allows the doubling of
damage across the board.
  As always, _Illuminate me_ gang!
 -Ken-
    
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