From: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com (RuneQuest Rules Digest) To: runequest-rules-digest@lists.ient.com Subject: RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #72 Reply-To: runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Sender: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Errors-To: owner-runequest-rules@lists.ient.com Precedence: bulk RuneQuest Rules Digest Wednesday, June 13 2001 Volume 04 : Number 072 RuneQuest is a trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. All Rights Reserved. TABLE OF CONTENTS Re: [RQ-RULES] Non-sequitor regarding spirit combat revision [RQ-RULES] "Martial arts" and the use of weapons [RQ-RULES] MARTIAL ARTS IS NOT IDENTICAL TO UNARMED!!!! [RQ-RULES] Non cookie-cutter shamans for Non-RuneQuest RE: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest Re: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest Re: [RQ-RULES] "Martial arts" and the use of weapons [RQ-RULES] Combat & Martial Arts [RQ-RULES] Rutting about with magic... RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:03:20 +0200 (CEST) From: epon0608@freebel.net Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Non-sequitor regarding spirit combat revision In my game, the %age is roughly as high as the spirit is tough, but sometime I have big spirits with low Spirit combat and vice versa. For spell spirits, the higher the spell, the higher the spirit combat (to make it difficult to get). For others, let the 'claw rule' rules... Cheers En réponse à bjm10@cornell.edu: > > > > >Spirit combat is broken and always has been. The concept is great, > but > > >execution simply doesn't work. However, a lot of RQ fans are wedded > to > > >the contest of POW mechanism. How many of them would want to > replace > > >ordinary combat with a contest of CON? I would much rather see POW > used > > >as a "spiritual" STR/CON (use INT for "spiritual" DEX/SIZ) and then > have > > >spiritual combat skills. These could be improved by experience in > areas > > >where one is prone to being attacked by spirits. > > > > Remind me, then, what you use for the spirit combat skill % of an > > elemental and of other spirits commonly sought for capture and > > binding. > > Gee, Idunno--what does one use for the "claw" skill % of a wild animal? > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com > with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. > > - ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through Tiscalinet Webmail (http://webmail.tiscalinet.be) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:12:31 -0400 (EDT) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [RQ-RULES] "Martial arts" and the use of weapons The grand heyday of European unarmed martial arts is also the grand heyday of European armed combat. Indeed, hoplology reveals that divorcing unarmed combat skills from armed combat is abnormal in human history. Likewise, there is no shortage of gee-whiz maneuvers that can be done with weapons or even combine weapons with techniques we consider "unarmed". The Germans developed a whole body of "Schwertringeln"--sword-wrestling, which used the two-handed sword as a grappling implement. The major difference in European history is that unarmed striking fell out of use in favor of "grappling" and moves that could come right out of jujutsu when armor got to be heavy. When armor was abandoned, the punches and kicks came back. What put the nail in the coffin of Western unarmed martial arts as a means of self defense was nothing other than the whims of fashion. In the 1800s, a craze developed among the well-to-do for anything and everything Japanese. Thus, the people with the money imported jujutsu instructors as being more "gentlemanly" than the louts who taught catch wrestling. The improvement of police forces sealed the issue. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:16:27 -0400 (EDT) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [RQ-RULES] MARTIAL ARTS IS NOT IDENTICAL TO UNARMED!!!! Okay, time for an all caps lock moment: MARTIAL ARTS IS NOT IDENTICAL TO UNARMED COMBAT!!!!!!!!! MARTIAL ARTS IS NOT IDENTICAL TO UNARMED COMBAT!!!!!!!!! Really, banish that nonsense from your minds. Indeed, the first use of the term "martial arts" in English referred specifically to study of the SWORD! Likewise, from my own experience, I see no great difference between armed and unarmed combat skills. It is a piece of Victorian nonsense perpetuated by Hollywood stupidity that swordsmanship consists of artless standing and bashing. Yeah, the Foo movies show all kinds of spiff stuff--but they have cooperative opponents and rehearsal in a choreographed routine. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:29:04 -0400 (EDT) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [RQ-RULES] Non cookie-cutter shamans for Non-RuneQuest Face it, shamans in RQ are cookie-cutter and only represent ONE form of shamanism. There are shamanic traditions around in our own world that do not have a spirit double (fetch) and do not discorporate. One example of this is Voudoun, where the Houngan summons spirits and loa to him and undergoes possession to gain their gifts. Essentially, the Houngan is his own fetch. Likewise, the Siberian tradition (essentially the "archetypal" tradition) differs from the RuneQuest version, which appears to be based exclusively upon what is done by American Great Plains tribes. Even the shamans of South America are different from RQ shamans. There's a short (200 pages) book that's got a very broad survey of different examples that I've found to be illuminating. It's called "Ecstatic Religion: A study of shamanism and spirit possession" by I.M. Lewis. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:46:03 -0600 From: "Rich Allen" Subject: RE: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest > > I'd heard previously about this or that MArtist having > >his hands-n-feet registered as Deadly Weapons. If he's > >not delivering any more damage with his > Doesn't happen, never existed, propaganda for the tourist trade. If you are saying that martial artists never have to register themselves as deadly weapons, then I'm afraid I have to call you on this one. The guy that taught me Tae Kwon-Do way back when, an old friend of the family, had to register with the local sherrif's office and he had the papers to prove it. He was a black belt in Karate, Tae Kwon-Do, and Ninjutsu. He could punch his stiffened fingers through several layers of canvas on a dummy, grab a tennis ball from inside the cavity, and present it to the dummy's face faster than you can blink; I've seen him do it. This is NOT something just anyone can do without LOTS of practice. To toughen his fingers, he jabs them into buckets of sand and small gravel. He had an accident several years ago which lost him an eye, but he still maintains two of his black belts. Another friend of mine, at his black-belt test, had to punch a piece of rice paper that was taped to a wall, hitting the paper without hitting the wall. And he did it. I don't remember what discipline he was studying. This brings up a thought I've had about this whole Martial Arts discussion. Technically, all fighting techniques are martial arts. That's what the term "martial" means. I think the stated problem is with the current rules regarding oriental style combat, but even here there are many different styles, most of which include weapons training of some sort. I do feel that the discipline training involved in, for example, T'ai Chi, gives a sword wielder of that discipline an advantage over a western sword wielder, but I don't have any way to back up that claim. As far as how I would emulate that in RQ... I'm not sure. I think their advantage is in learning where to strike most efectively, for maximum damage, so maybe allowing called shots at 75% skill would do it? The biggest thing I took away from a T'ai Chi class was this statement from my Sensei: "If you have to deliver more than one hit in a fight, you are doing it wrong. This isn't Kung Fu Theater boys and girls!" Rich Allen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:50:25 -0700 From: "Steve Perrin" Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: [RQ-RULES] Not-RuneQuest > > > > 3. Interesting take on Martial Arts. These days, however, I've tied it into my "number of > > successes" system so that extra successes in it can be used for damage or > > additional defense, etc. So I'll keep it if only because some players are > > enamored of the idea of being able to "do" martial arts. > > Fine--but it should also apply equally to armed combat. Look at how > "martial arts" were used in the real worldIf unarmed combat is so all-powerful, > weapons would never have become so popular. Sorry I wasn't clear. Yes, of course it applies to weapon use. > > 7. Spirit magic was often described in psionic terms. > > It felt that way to me, sometimes. Thus, for a "psionic" world, maybe > the character would have to engage in "spirit combat" with himself to > learn a new ability... > I suppose, though I would think he would engage in "spirit combat" with his teacher. Not sure I'm going to keep the concept of learning magic by stealing it from spirits, though that may be one way of learning... > > I did my table based on the idea that the shallowest curve is best. So I go > > Shallow curve is more to my liking, too. > > > And do you think this gives too high a number and the intensity value > > should be the maximum effect? Thus, the max total would be 13 and I would > > roll a d10 and a d3 or a d8, a d3 and a d2. > > > The max number in the first version feels too high to me, too. D10+d3 > sounds good. This would mean messing with the armor, too, but something needs to be done in any case. Some of the results in my old game came out way over the top... > discussion with Murf snipped because I already said MA should apply to ALL combat.< Steve Perrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:57:21 +0200 From: Peter Keel Subject: Re: [RQ-RULES] "Martial arts" and the use of weapons * on the Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 11:12:31AM -0400, bjm10@cornell.edu was blubbering: > > The grand heyday of European unarmed martial arts is also the grand > heyday of European armed combat. Indeed, hoplology reveals that > divorcing unarmed combat skills from armed combat is abnormal in human > history. Correct. read for instance the "Fechbücher" at http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/library_H.htm > Likewise, there is no shortage of gee-whiz maneuvers that can be done > with weapons or even combine weapons with techniques we consider > "unarmed". The Germans developed a whole body of > "Schwertringeln"--sword-wrestling, which used the two-handed sword as a > grappling implement. Yes, and european fighting was in no way inferior to the asian way. See http://freepages.pavilion.net/users/hadesign/noshield4.html for a comparison of styles and effectiveness. Cheers Seegras (Doing the Thalhoffer) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:59:56 -0400 From: Robert Stancliff Subject: [RQ-RULES] Combat & Martial Arts I really liked Hero Systems (Champions) pointing out that all trained and analyzed combat is a Martial Art. The only real differences are the specific skills and styles taught, and the names given to the maneuvers. I have seen a trained boxer defeat a karate fighter with some good kicking skills, so the relative skill of the combatants matters more than the style being used. Champions created a large set of maneuvers that defined the game effects for the most common types of attacks and defenses, and then created martial arts styles by picking a modest group of maneuvers from the full list. For instance, Karate might focus on punches and dodge, but Aikido might have several throws and block. Each maneuver had it's own attack, defense, and damage modifiers to make them distinct from each other, and when you used an action in your martial arts style, it would 'act like' one of the general maneuvers. These modifiers could also be applied to weapon styles and the damage bonus would affect the weapon, so a person fighting with basic skill could be quite good, but the martial arts training for his weapon could give his a few more points in one modifier in exchange for some small penalties in the other two. Character points had to be spent for each style of combat you learned, it wasn't bought once to apply to everything. Some referees felt that martial arts gave too big a bonus to the user and they wouldn't allow it, but since it was tying up points that could have been used to buy another power, it wasn't that unbalanced. RQ martial arts was strictly an unarmed style that increased the damage of attacks and holds, but could supply no other effects. Being trained to do more damage with an attack is a real skill and is different from having more special and critical attacks by hitting more vulnerable points, so the current system, could really just use some more variety of effects. Stancliff *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:28:07 -0400 (EDT) From: bjm10@cornell.edu Subject: [RQ-RULES] Rutting about with magic... The terrifying attic that is my mind disgorged the following relics that might be amusing to toss around for ideas in the Non-RuneQuest: Magic--what is it? Is there a "magical thingie" that all forms of magic tap into or is each form essentially (as in "oousion") different from the other? I prefer the former, although practitioners usually belive the latter. This is one thing that allows herioc entities to "cheat". Forms of magic I'd like to see: I'd like to see a generalization of principles implicit in what has appeared regarding magic in RQ. "Spirit Magic"--intensely personal and quirky. Essentially all "low". Even the "high" forms are just big "low" effects. However, magicians can develop strange personal powers. "Divine Magic"--good at big stuff, given as largesse or a trade from a powerful to weak being. "Low" effects are very weak to nonexistent. Some cultures make up for this by polluting their divine magic with spirit magic. Other cultures sneer at them and point out that this reduces advancement upon the divine path. "Sorcery"--the monkey wrench of magic. Ugly as all get out, but you can use it for SOOO many tasks. Sneers at everybody. Has "low" and "high" effects. Does not play well with others. However, understanding what you're using it ON can make all the difference. No amount of monkey wrench can turn a clod into an all-star repairman. It is at once the most primal and the most derived form of magic. Perhaps there are actually two things that are lumped together as "sorcery", giving us five forms of magic (a pentacle?). Actually, given the way the Brithini live, this might be the case, which would mean that most "Sorcerers" known east of the West are actually "mixers". "The Fourth Way". Alternatively called "Dragon Magic" or other names. Very little really known about it. What I've always envisioned the Fourth Way as is a COLLECTIVE magic. That is, it is all very much "High" magic, but only castable by large groups. Magicians of the Fourth Way are as much administrators as magic-wielders. Not popular among adventurers. Dragons are collective beings as individuals so they get to use this as individuals. Mixing: Let's say this happens when pragmatism overcomes puritanism. Let's set up a theoretical construct The High: Divine, Sorcery (High), Fourth Way The Low: Spirit, Sorcery (Low) Generally, mixing usually occurs when a Low is combined with a High, although High/High mixing has also been seen. Low/Low mixing seems to be very rare. The problem with the RQ3 magic system (which was the first to indicate that the Praxian method wasn't necessarily the Way Things Must Work) is that it really imposed no penalty AT ALL for mixing. Indeed, it set up one para-system ("Sorcery") as an ultimate penalization in comparison to the other methods. For Spirit Magic, one lost nothing in learning spells. One spent POW to get Divine Magic. One had to allocate precious study time that could be devoted to other skills for sorcery. The rules essentially encouraged mixing. It smelled like a cobbled-together kludge. I'd like to see some sort of reward for purity or penalty for mixing. I would also like to see "High" and "Low" be more strongly defined. Thus, instead of just hand-waving about "Cult Spirit Magic" or "Cult Magic", have any religion with such a mixture if high and low be a mixed system, either with the penalty for mixing or the lack of bonus for purity. Of course, heroic figures break the rules, so there is at least a rumor of a way to either eliminate the penalty or gain the bonuses if one mixes. A "flattened" pentacular arrangement of the forms would come out something like this: There are two types of connections, "inner", which follow a pentacle, and "outer", which follow a pentagon. "Inner" connections might be easier to make if mixing, but mixing more than two types should be harder than mixing two types. Truly astonishing beings could mix all five kinds by combining inner and outer connections. Inner connections divine--spirit--fourth--sorc (high)--sorc (low)--divine Outer connections divine--fourth--sorc (low)--spirit--sorc (high)--divine The reason that "divine" is repeated is that it actually represents the closure of the shape. The most common types of mixing would be of two forms directly connected along the inner path. Much rarer would be mixture of three forms along the inner path--and the "central" form would be emphasized (possibly). Anyway, this is all just speculation. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of RuneQuest Rules Digest V4 #72 ************************************ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.ient.com with the line 'unsubscribe runequest-rules' as the body of the message. RuneQuest is a Trademark of Hasbro/Avalon Hill Games. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.