Re: Death of Orlanth

From: jeffrichard68 <richj_at_...>
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 15:14:18 -0000


Peter -

First, I think that the Temple of the Reaching Moon in Sartar is unique. OiD (which I am unwilling to dismiss as pure "propaganda") says that quite explicitly. Second, I think that as a condition precedent to begin construction of the new Temple, Orlanth must be killed. Again, OiD says that explicitly.

Most importantly, though, is that this makes a good and unique story. We have a big Lunar project to change Glorantha by killing at least a major part or aspect of a Great God and lay mythical claim to his home turf. Nothing quite like this has been done since the Bright Empire - and the Lunars are even more ambitious.

We also have a band of Orlanthi that have been pushed into a doomed fortress to resist against overwhelming odds. Searching their own myths and magics - and maybe even discovering the secret of their Star Heart - they hold off the assault and defeat the great chaos demon of Shepelkirt.

For whatever reason, the Lunar magicians realize that these Orlanthi can be substituted for Orlanth in the new Temple ritual. So they prepare to kill Orlanth at Whitewall. The Orlanthi continue holding out against the odds, and their resistance inspires those who had given up hope. More Orlanthi flock to Whitewall - and reinforce the identification of the fate of Whitewall with the fate of Orlanth.

Except that in the end, Whitewall is doomed and its fall will "kill Orlanth" (whatever that is supposed to mean - not even the Lunars expect the Fimbulwinter IMO). At some point, Broyan realizes this (hopefully with the aid of player-characters) and realizes the Lunars have put him, his people and his god in a trap. So he and his companions prepare to do something really heroic and perform some sort of Immolation of Whitewall. And with that, the Hero Wars begin in earnest.

This is, IMHO, a cool and very Gloranthan story. It can begin tying together many player's campaigns - directly or indirectly - into an event that changes Glorantha. Let's be ambitious with Whitewall. For whatever reason, it turns about to be far more significant than the Fall of Boldhome or the death of the Pharoah.

> But everything previously (Fortunate Succession, Glorantha: intro
> and even Heroquest Voices: Talking to the Moon Woman "he
> resists the Goddess's liberation and suffers because of it, but
> with compassion Sedenya reaches out to him and will prevail.
> We shall free him!") indicates that the Lunars were not planning
> for some time to Kill Orlanth.

Orlanth is a great god and the Lunars know it. Killing Orlanth might mean "simply" eliminating certain aspects of the god and killing those off. Frex, FS says:

"In 7/30 Ignifer assembled a great army, and he led it south to crush the rebel god Orlanatus. This deity had persisted in making trouble since the reign of Muharazarm, and had been continually beaten. But this god reuired trouble in order to survive, and so he kept at it. Ignifer executed a great plan, whose preparation had been working for many centuries, which would finally encompass this unruly spirit, and while still allowing it to live, would incorporate it within reasonable limits."

Granted this refers to the conquest of Sartar, but putting Orlanth "within reasonable limits" requires eliminating certain aspects of Orlanth at the very least. Maybe it means killing off the Rebellus Terminus aspects. The resulting "rump Orlanth" is "healed". We are talking weird wiggy Lunar myths where it is entirely possible to heal someone by killing them.

> The Lunars did have a plot but the precise details of that plot
> was always going to be open-ended. What I'm suggesting is
> that somewhere along the line, Tatius goes rogue and commits
> the might of the Lunar Empire to a course of action that will
> ultimately destroy it.

I don't think that Tatius has "gone rogue". I think he acts with the full support and approval of the Empiror.

> I haven't read Barbara Tuchman and I don't intend to start. What I
> do object to are notions that the Lunars have planned all the
details
> decades before it ever started when such a thing is contrary to what
> we know about how the Lunar Empire operates.

Barbara Tuchman is one of the primary sources of your "guns of August" quote. Her book, titled "The Guns of August" is a famous description of the unanticipated and accidental chain of events that resulted in the First World War. Very influential book - JFK obsessed about it during the Cuban Missile Crisis (at least if you believe Michael Beschloss).

I don't believe that the Lunars planned all the details of this. They knew where the new Temple was to be built. They knew the conditions that needed to be fulfilled. But they did not know that the siege of some Southern Sartar hillfort would end up satisfying the "kill Orlanth" condition. But when Broyan killed the Bat and heroes flocked to Whitewall, Tatius knew - here is where we change the world.

> So while I concede that strange and exacting circumstances must be
> present for a Temple of Unusual Size, I find it hard to see why
that these
> circumstances should include the death of a Great God given that the
> the temples at Jillaro and Oraya apparently required no such
sacrifices.

Because OiD says it did (in a section that I do not think is Orlanthi propaganda - in fact I don't think that section is a "Gloranthan" document). This temple is different - an experiment. It is the first temple clearly outside of the realm of Muharazarm (Furthest might be Elempur).

> So the propaganda has it. However at that time, the Lunars had not
> even explored Sartar so where were they intending to put it? The
Mask
> Militaris, after defeating the Orlanthi at Grizzly Peak two years
later,
> does nothing further with the plan even though he lived for a
further
> four years.

Internal Lunar politics - as OiD says - delayed it. Or do you think that OiD, which is a frickin' gamemaster book, is mere "propaganda"?

> A couple of observations - an assault by the bat isn't a textbook
> assault. In light of the anticipated slaughter, I doubt that
Jorkandros
> is actually prepared for battle and if it wasn't for the bat damage,
> the whitewall Orlanthi would have overwhelmed his forces.

That makes sense.

> Tatius may have made a lucky guess as to the correct location
> of the showdown with Orlanth but I don't think it's something
> any Lunar magician would know until the conquest of the rest
> of Heortland had removed all doubt. I do not believe that he
> was intending to kill Orlanth at this stage.

Let me shade this a bit: I do not believe that he had been given the green-light to kill Orlanth at this stage. I think that Tatius himself was sure that this was this place.

> I doubt that Orlanth's death was required in any way for the
> construction of the temple while the nature and degree of
> his enslavement may have helped it in some unquantifiable
> way. However Tatius suffers a much worse setback to
> the progress of his temple from Harrek and co. than from
> the return of Orlanth which doesn't sound right.

Killing Orlanth is a condition precedent to begin construction. Once Orlanth returns, Tatius probably believes - or convinces himself - that completion of the Temple will fix it. Turned out that the return of Orlanth was a much worse setback than Harrek and co. You know, Dragonrise and all.

>
> >Sorry, I should have said that Tatius's ritual assault on
Whitewall -
> > on Orlanth's Stead (or whatever we say this is) - is the
> >culmination of decades of planning.
>
> Okay. We just disagree on what the planning is about. You say
> it's to kill Orlanth and establish the Temple of Unusual Size
> while I say that the plan was to enslave Orlanth which was
transformed
> by Tatius at a critical stage to kill him instead and that the
Temple
> was a seperate project.

I think that to "enslave" Orlanth or to "restrict him to reasonable limits" is to "kill Orlanth" is some meaningful manner. Certain core aspects of Orlanth must be eliminated to do either.

Jeff

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