>>> Yes it's a lovely piece of artwork but if that fortress is >>>what's being besieged they're going to need half the Red Army to >>>dislodge a few hundred Orlanthi. Even Shargashi wouldn't try to >>>assault that unless a moonboat dropped them directly on the temple >>>of Orlanth.
Me:
>> An excellent point against all Masada parallels. We do want heroic >> combat and magics. And we know there are no superior numbers >>attrition fights like Helm's Deep.
Ian Cooper
> Let's avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water. I think the
> illustration is a great first stab at our ideas. Here are a few
> suggestions which may help solve some of your problems.
Ok.
Nothing wrong with a citadel inside the "city". In fact, fighting in the debris caused by two years of siege warfare should add to the experience.
For story-telling reasons, assaults on the city ought to appear feasible. We sort of agreed that the siege is not decided by disease or famine, but by military and most of all heroic attrition. At least, champions' attrition.
I have three favourite siege stories in Fantasy literature, all told from the perspective of the people suffering the siege: Tolkien's "Fall of Gondolin" in the earlier version (Book of Lost Tales), David Gemmel's "Legend" and the siege of Armengar in Raymond Feist's "A Darkness at Sethanon". Common features are a complete over-run of the outer defenses at terrible cost to the defenders (and even worse to the attackers), with heroic retreats, sallies, ambushes, raids... Only the siege in Gemmel's "Legend" is a victory for the defenders, although in both other cases there is a "tactical victory" for the defenders in getting the refugees clear.
> - On that tip of the plateau, below the citadel, put 'Tarkalor's
> New Town'. It is dwarfed by the fortress. The new town was built by
> Tarkalor to provide better accomodation for craftsmen, towsnfolk
> etc. It is a disordered array of mostly wooden houses, some with
> gardens etc. that grew up under Tarkalor. It might have its own
> mayor or the like. It is not aw well defended,
Not quite convinced, really. I have no trouble with "look impregnable 4W15", but with "impregnable 4W15". The town ought to be an integral part of the fortress, and total or partial loss ought to smart.
Then there's the "Great Temple to Orlanth" bit. Where do large numbers of initiates fly?
> with a small
> crennelated wall, dwarfed by the citadel above it. (Perhaps this is
> the section illustrated in DP:LoT).
For some reason (possibly to do with the boxed text on the opposite page) I associated that picture with Sartar on the main wall of Boldhome.
> See the DP:LoT entry on Satarite
> cities, as Tarkalor would be influenced by these.
I wouldn't have guessed.. ;)
I note that Tarkalor gains no credit as city-builder, though. One reason for this might be that he wasn't Prince of Sartar when he liberated the Volsaxi tribes, but then the road-building to Whitewall occurred during his reign, some 15 to 30 years after the liberation. Tarkalor's reign lasted only 13 or 15 years, the last seven also as King of Dragon Pass. His Trollkiller fame resulted from his earlier deeds, around the same time as Dorasar set off to resettle Pavis.
> - Tarkalor's Road with its bridge and gatehouse runs up to the new
> town, not the citadel (and is less overlooked by those walls). The
> gatehouse,halfway along the bridge, is probably the best defensive
> structure preventing access to the new town (perhaps on a natural
> pillar of rock).
Would be an improvement IMO.
> - While the bat assault is probably an attempt to take the citadel,
> and prevent a long-winded siege other assaults are probably
> initially directed at the bridge and the town.
Yup.
> - The bridge probably changes hands several times during the
> fighting.
The bridge in the drawing looks very vulnerable, and would be used as a trap.
> - The residents of the town probably shelter in the citadel during
> serious assaults, giving the place a refugee crowded feel (there are
> now too many folk here). Eventually the town will become the weak
> spot, too hard for the Orlanthi to defend, and it is the townsfolk
> who get evacuated first.
Insert various scenes from LotR...
> - That leaves the final stand at the citadel.
> Does that sort of thing help those who do not like the citadel?
It helps, but something where a huge amount of engineering might endanger the site would help, too. If you replace the water by a deep but not too deep valley, somewhat analogous to Alexander's siege of Tyre - build a ramp, bring up close-range demolition equipment, and fight your way over the wall while others try to breach it.
see frex
http://joseph_berrigan.tripod.com/ancientbabylon/id34.html
As an aside: one feature I'd like to retain from RQA 4 is the Argan Argar statue below the citadel.
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