Re: Broyan and Larnste

From: jorganos <joe_at_...>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:44:01 -0000

>>I'll have to check the exact sources for Broyan being
>>ultraconservative

> Thunder Rebels p6.

Isn't that info outdated compared to the OiD entry?

I'll check when I have my sources ready.

>>If so, so
>>would be hiring the Wolf Pirates in the first place.

> Which is the moral flaw that got him done in.

Agreed. But does this have to be the only flaw he is guilty of?

>>>>What makes you think that Vogarth was not an initiate of Orlanth?

>>>Because he has a history outside the Orlanthi which is described
>>>in "Morden defends the camp".

>>Which is a story of Pelorian _Orlanthi_ vs Heortlings.

> So? Vogarth is still said to be known in Central Genertela which > includes more than the Orlanthi, the last time I looked.

I'm afraid I don't get your point.

Do you want to tell me that it is/ought to be possible to worship a hero within any cult, as long as there are no open hostilities?

Or do you tell me that an Orlanthi hero is known in lands shared by Orlanth and others? Yes, Alakoring is known there too. That doesn't make Alakoring any less Orlanthi.

>>>He's not. He's a subcult of Orlanth and is still separate from Orlanth
>>>in the same way that Harst, Drogarsi, Helamakt and others are.

>>Harst, Drogarsi and Helamakt are recognized as guises of Orlanth.

> And they are worshipped by cultists of Issaries, Donandar > and Heler indicating they are not just guises of Orlanth.

Good - you seem to agree that a subcult entity can be a guise of Orlanth and also not just a guise of Orlanth but more, and different. The examples you chose are worshipped as subcults of other gods.

Rigsdal, while no subcult of Orlanth (or is he?), is a god in his own right also worshipped as subcult of other deities (Elmal, Humakt).

He is not recognized as a guise of Elmal, AFAIK. Yet he is a subcult.

>>>I am bemused by the attempts to objectively portray the Pharaoh as a
>>>bad god who has only his interests at heart.

>>And I'm bemused that you get this impression.

> When you described the Pharaoh as leeching magic.

Well, he does. It is part of his nature that he has taken over significant roles in each of the Sixths, and that he draws upon the magic these roles convey. This doesn't make him a bad god. It is necessary to the well-being of his Holy Country in toto. Yes, some local cults are hit by this. Kalops the Sacrificial King in Esrolia, for instance.

> When you describe the pharaoh as ruining the freedom of the > Hendreiki.

He exchanges the Freedom of the Hendreiki for the Freedom of the Kethaelans. He takes a little, and makes more of it. Yes, the Hendreiki get less. Somewhat. It's a give-and-take - the Hendreiki receive their share of the special powers of the other Sixths in return. Yes, this does change them somewhat. Yes, some groups view this as bad. Overall, I judge this as beneficient.

>>But the Pharaoh has the interest of the combined Holy
>>Country at heart, towards which each of the Sixths had to sacrifice
>>some integral part of their great magics.

> Do they?  Why do they have to sacrifice?  Why don't they move in
> synergy instead?  Nobody makes the same arguments about Sartar
> so why should we concern ourselves with auditing the costs and
> benefits of Pharaonic rule, the effects of which are unknowable?

Sartar too laid some additional duties onto the tribes and clans of his principality. And I suppose some people complained. Sartar, while he was around, dealt with the problems of the complainants. So did the Pharaoh. It is his absence (or heavy commitment elsewhere, in 1605) which weakened the shelter.

This is probably a topic better suited for the glorantha-pays-saint list or the digest, since the Pharaoh is off-topic here.

>>>Except that the EWF didn't extend into Heortland as it was an ally
>>>(of sorts) of the Only Old One. The main foes were the God Learners
>>>whom it is said that the Hendreiki survived by "clinging to their
ancient
>>>freedoms and remaining true to them".

>>Their ancient freedoms as manifest by Hendreik's followers, the
>>Larnsti, right?

> No. The general practice of freedom in Heortland, i.e. not keeping > slaves and the like.

The god learners weren't known for introducing slavery to Esrolia or Ralios, either. Neither did the EWF.

>>Or why else did the Andrini value the Larnsti magics
>>the sheriffs could offer higher than their clan identities - which
>>made them Orlanthi?

> One can worship Orlanth without being in a clan.

As a devotee I have seen this. (The six-winds guy in BA)

As an initiate, I fail to see how. Remember that formal exiles lose their Orlanthi magic.

>>According to your history, it seems the Andrini simply said "Ok, we'll
>>stop having clans. Let foreigners schooled in Larnsti magics commune
>>with our wyters, direct our magics, distribute our odal property".

> I don't know where you got foreigners from. Could you explain?

Yes, simple. "Foreigner" is anybody "not of our clan".

> The reformation of heortland was a native one and it is made clear > that the process was not a radical one.

While I have some doubt about the "is made clear" (not to me) bit, yes, the Sheriffs introduced by Andrin were Hendreiki.

Having these non-clan members take over even only part of the offices of the clan chieftains is nothing but radical. Ask any traditional Orlanthi.

The Andrinic Hendreiki remain within the Heortling culture, but like the Vendref they have given up key elements of traditional Heortling life, as understood by their contemporary Heortlings.

I'm still toying with the idea that Andrin's reforms were dictated in part by Heort himself, summoned by Belintar, but they do change the status quo ante quite radically.

And I think Belintar pulled such stunts in all of the Sixths. Pharaonic Esrolia differs in significant ways from pre-pharaonic Esrolia.

Philippe, could you say something about this?

>>Subtracting those who just left (to Sartar and the Grazelands) and
>>those who were forced to accept this, I'm still baffled that the
>>Andrini so willingly sacrificed so much of their identity.

> They haven't. It's like saying that scots have ceased to be > scottish by not living in clans.

There was a strong disagreement between highlander clansfolk and lowlander townsfolk on just this issue, yes. This is the core issue why Volsaxar remained apart from the rest of Hendreikiland.

>>>Except that the social development happens to be an alleged major
>>>impact of the magical freedom of the Heortlanders. So Larnste would
>>>comment on that.

>>Why would Larnste be concerned with the freedom of the Heortlander
>>Orlanthi?

> Because the Larnsti are worshipping him for that benefit.

That's the Larnstis' expectation, then, not the deity's orientation. There is no published myth where Larnste freed anybody, or where he caused anything in order to provide freedom. Go ahead and write some if you think Larnste has this power. Until then I will assume that Hendreik found a way to use Larnste's universal powers to ensure Hendreik's freedom, and passed this on to the Larnsti.

>>And not the Sartarite Orlanthi, or the Tarshites around
>>Travelling Stone?

> Because no Larnsti live there.

The Travelling Stone itself is a manifestation of Larnste. Surely it will have worshippers. Do they have special freedom?

>>>A chief feature about Vingkotling Kings is that they hold their
>>>title through traceable descent from Orlanth.

>>A completely correct statement.

>>Traceable descent from Heort (which at least every second Heortling
>>can cite) means traceable descent from Orlanth.

> No.  Traceable through a bloodline of which the genealogical
> rules are more restrictive than simple lines of descent.  The
> Players Book Genertela spoke thus:

>  Usually among the equal minded Orlanthi, kingship
>  is usually restricted to members of several bloodlines
>  who trace paternal ancestry back to Orlanth.
>                 PB: G p16.


> That doesn't sound like one in every two and I don't think
> Heort's lineage qualifies as he is not descended from > Vingkot.

Heort is a descendant in direct paternal line of Korol Vingkotsson. While this didn't qualify him for Vingkotling High Kingship because he can't trace his lineage back to Kodig, it sufficed as descent from Vingkot and Orlanth.

As an aside: Sartar's lineage seems to be less paternal-minded, with the various maternal Sartar descendants among the Argraths... Apparently Onelisin and Tarkalor had a great row when the successor for Jarosar was chosen.

>>>So Broyan converts the elective title of Volsaxar kingship into
>>>a hereditary one and nobody complains? Even in Tarsh, that
>>>change provoked a major rebellion.

>>Given Broyan's lack of heirs, the danger of this kingship actually
>>being inherited by another is not an issue.

> Why is it not an issue? Is it general knowledge that he's impotent?

It was agreed here that it is general knowledge that he doesn't acknowledge any male heirs.

> If it isn't, then he can still beget heirs after coronation and so > it becomes an issue.

Even so, continuation of the line is not ascertained. It's "obey chosen leaders" all over. There are complaints when the "subjects" feel that the successor doesn't fit their criteria. In the case of Yanasdros of Tarsh, we have a Henry V scenario.

>>I wondered whether you meant them to be the origin of the
>>Vingkotling high kingship in Vosaxar, since everywhere else
>>I looked I found no indications for that.

> The key criteria for Kingship is blood-lineage. It doesn't matter 
> where one's ancestors were at the Dawn as people can migrate through 
> tribes and clans.




>>Using this optimistic parallel for the Larnsti, their grasp of the
>>magic of the Celestial Court God is limited. I know of no mountain
>>or mountain chain seeded by a mortal Larnsti.

> Which doesn't mean that a Larnsti couldn't grow a small hillock.

Sure. I'm certain there are Orlanth magics for this, too - one of the origin myths of the Storm(walk) mountains (not repeated in DP:LoT) has Orlanth raising them for his mother to connect Quivin with his half-siblings by Vestkarthen (in the source still called Lodril).

>>The only Orlanthi mortal I
>>know to have assigned the proper places for the dead and the living
>>was Heort - who most probably was not a Larnsti. Or was he?

> Apart from the worshippers of Chalana Arroy, Humakt, Issaries
> and Ty Kora Tek, you mean?  Given that, I don't see the problem
> with Larnsti having soul arranging powers.

A mis-understanding, then - if you mean this as a power of changing life into death, well, that's easy. The other way around I am wary about - Larnste may animate things, or make them something different, but it would be out of his character to remake anything into its original form.

>>>Not only
>>>what Sartar did, but the mythical events that Larnste was
>>>capable of doing (soul arranger etc). Does that look reducible
>>>to a single subcult to you?

>>No. This looks reducible to a certain number of subcults, and only one
>>of these is available to the Heortlings of Kethaela.

> Which is? Glorantha: Intro says otherwise

>  Hendreik's secret lay in that he was a worshipper of Larnste,
>  the God of Motion. By remaining free in thought and deed, no
>  one could ever subdue his people. Although Hendreik embodied
>  freedom, the Larnsti were not restricted in the mysteries of the
>  God they chose to study.

>          Glorantha: Intro p143.

That's another case of intention vs reception:

I read this as the Larnsti's freedom to study other magics as well. No doubt there are other interpretations around.

Let me note that if you mean there is no restrictive set of sample feats, then the game mechanic of a Change affinity might be the wrong way to handle this, and I submit my quasi-mystic way once more.

>>I'm convinced that there is a lot more potential in the worship of
>>Larnste than just "Change for Freedom". However, IMO this is
>>available through "mystical" means - personal experiences not
>>available through teachings - not through additional affinities.

> What's wrong with Larnste being worshipped through ordinary > theism? Why do we have to muck around with mysticism?

Because Larnste is even less normal as cultic worship object than Donandar or Lanbril. You pointed this out yourself when you mentioned the lack of limits of his powers. Larnste is sort of a universal constant - err, make that variable - beyond the normal scope of theism. I'm not even convinced that Larnste belongs to any particular of the Three Worlds. I agree that he is mostly associated with theist myths, but that's _mostly_ and _associated_.

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