Re: Caste

ttrotsky2 wrote in answer to me:

>> For me, the question among the Rokari is whether or not they adjust for
>> personal ability, or if you are just stuck.
>> i.e. - You're a commoner. You have aptitude for magic. Can you learn
>> magic, but still be legally a commoner for caste purposes, or are
>> you caste-breaking if you learn magic?
>>
>> Both make for good stories.
>> I'm inclined to think the official Rokari position is the latter.
>
>In Lords of the West, I took the view that it's more complicated than
that. Quite a lot more complicated.

Lovely. I adore complicated. Could you give an example? Certainly the Rokari as presented have been "born in, die there".

The bits I can glean from Jrusteli from the 2nd Age stuff shows a conflict in the Middle Sea Empire with various versions of this idea. It seems the Jrusteli adopted a more flexible approach due to necessity, but the implication is that the old way was extremely inheritance-based.

I'm also certain somewhere there is a group that does it by assignation at birth/adolescence. You get tested magically/religiously/however and then are assigned a caste. This can be divorced entirely from your heritage, but you are also expected not to break it ever once assigned.

In fact, I like that as an idea for a small area cut off during the ban. It's closed, a bit paranoid and oppressive, but it ensures all the roles are filled. It could be a divine lottery instead of a prayed-upon inspiration...

Oh wait.

A leftover Zistorite machine. A prayer-wheel computer of some kind. It assesses the needs of the community and assigns the adults coming up accordingly, while also assessing their magic. No one dares question whether it is broken - or admits its probable origins.

>> I think I'd put the whole "offices can impart nobility" mixed in with
>> some hereditary and some the office is noble, and if you keep it three
>> generations you stay noble even if the office is stripped from you,
>> etc. complications in Ralios.
>
>I could see it in some other places, too (Junora, most notably), but
Ralios seems the best place, I agree.

I actually would say it exists a few places, and is one of the things the Rokari are trying to bring back in line with the whole "One Church, One King" thing. Isn't a reclamation of the various noble priviliges and territories part of their deal? Getting rid of this sloppy and inappropriately holy approach to things would be in line with that.

>>In fact, I'd be inclined to think that Ralios has a whole messed up
>> mix of approaches about this.

>Ralios has a messed up mix of approaches to *everything* :)

Well, yes. Exactly. ^_^

>Actually, the great majority of members of the saintly and priestly
orders are not members of the wizard caste in most parts of the West.
>Although there are several wizards in the priestly orders (and
generally, they're the senior members), most wizards join wizardry schools instead, and very few join saintly orders.
>The knights of Saint Gerlant, for example, aren't wizards - they're
knights.

And the more I think about it, the more sense it makes for many Saintly orders to consider themselves knights in the caste system. They are outside the 4 castes, they do jobs according to their calling. And since they combine castes, the fact that the high members of the order cast spells like Wizards doesn't change the fact they're knights.

I like that. In fact, I can see orders of Dormal or Xemela also being knights in some places - at least legally. Other places might view Priestly orders as simply made up of many different castes doing their job for one goal.

Quick question. In your view, are saintly orders more similar across malkioni sect lines, or different? i.e. - The Order of Gerlant - something that transcends Fronelan/Ralian/Seshnelan differences or noticeably different orders in each place, united by similarities in outlook?

LC