From: Jeff <richaje_at_b4c8dtgmdC-3_Raj1YYiOu8vkX1gkSczPKkEv3M115UhmpWHlCH3HxbCUski6oXtV45nFlyyRGY.yahoo.invalid>
Subject: Re: S:KoH Nandan?
To: WorldofGlorantha_at_yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 20:18
> Good, that helps us understand. So, is there a cult through which men with
> penises can worship Ernalda, or is wanting to worship Ernalda in the first
> place a sign that they really have been women all along? Put another way, what
> does being a woman mean in your statement? It clearly can't mean "someone with
> female sexual organs", but is a woman someone who acts like women typically act,
> someone who feels she is a woman regardless of how she looks or acts, or is
> there some other way to tell?
Men worship Ernalda, just as women worship Orlanth. But mere men cannot be initiated into Ernalda's mysteries. Otherwise they would be women, not men. Only women can be initiated into the Goddess's mysteries, even if barbarians and foreign fools think some of those women are men.
Jeff
If one must be a woman to be initiated into the mysteries of Ernalda, maybe one has to be a man to be initiated into the ways of Orlanth?
If so, does this mean that Vingans must really be men, despite appearances to the contrary? Because Vinga is the way "women" worship Orlanth, just as Nandan is the way "men" worship Ernalda (but by so doing, they prove that they are women really)
Vingans do men's work, and in many ways are honorary men-- but is that really the same thing? I'm not sure I'd like that idea.
In my Glorantha Vinga is not a perfect mirror image of Nandan. Not least because some Vingans might follow this path for a while before reverting to a more conventional 'Ernalda' role at a later date-- and in my Glorantha it is not unnatural for them to do so, as they are moving through the stages from Maid to Mother (and later to Crone).
Obviously others will stay Vingans forever, especially if they are "men trapped in women's bodies". Whilst a minority pursuit, this is no less socially acceptable than marriage.
Also should Vingans "have relationships" with (other?) men, or with (other?) women. Even if they don't marry, that doesn't necessarily commit them to celibacy (which seems quite unOrlanthi). In my Glorantha Vingans are often "ladettes".There are some who do either, and maybe even some who do both (or neither), but they do whatever they do outside marriage (and this is acceptable). Indeed some early/unofficial write-ups of Vinga suggested that the red hair dye doubled as a contraceptive, and gave Vingans a degree of 'sexual liberation'-- is this still the prevailing orthodoxy?
In my Glorantha Vingans are usually unmarried but need not be celibate. Vingans are also reasonably free to marry men and rejoin Ernalda worship if they choose. Some do, some don't.
I think it was suggested at some point yesterday that Nandan cultists could marry (presumably Orlanthi?) men.
If Vingans are really men in Orlanthi eyes, does this mean that a Vingan can marry an Ernalda cultist? If so, could the person be both Vingan and married? Or could this union even prove that the Vingan was unambiguously a man, allowing them to worship another aspect of Orlanth?
FWIW I haven't taken a view either way on this last point yet (as previously I saw it as part of being Vingan that Vingans couldn't marry, though to be honest I can't remember why). I am just putting it out for discussion.
Richard Hayes
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