> Leaving aside the wizards and the lords, I think the warrior and farming
> families for a given region should have shared kinships due to the women
> in their lives.
Non-farming warrior communities have existed in many cultures as a "caste" separate from the local farmers (and sometimes even speaking a different language). Think of the warrior "guilds" as settled military "clans" who are fed and supported by nearby farming villages. So you might have a fortified settlement of 350 warriors (including wives and children), supported by 2000 farmers scattered in a dozen villages. Once or twice a season , a member of the district's ruling talar family comes by, oversees the market and dispenses justice between the farmers and the soldiers. And also once a season (maybe as a prelude to the market and courts), everyone assembles at the temple to the Invisible God and prays as directed by a wizard. Other times, the soldiers gather at their shrine and recite the Readings, while the farmers do the same at their shrines (but different readings, of course).
The talar, meanwhile, hopefully lives in a nice palace in a proper city, or at least in a villa where he doesn't have to deal with the stink of the farmers or the stupidity of the soldiers.
> I don't see the Dangim March in the reference that you gave (I'm not
> disputing the example just that I couldn't find it).
The reference was just to get the proper titles correct. The MSE titles are still the basis for military and civilian titles throughout much of the west of Genertela (and Pamaltela and elsewhere).
> Secondly there is
> nearly four hundred years between the collapse of the Middle Sea Empire
> and the rise of Bailifes. While Tanisor since that time has conquered
> Safelster twice (one by Bailfies himself and the second by Ulianus III),
> During the four hundred years before then Safelster actually has
> conquered much of Tanisor at least once (one such war is mentioned in Uz
> Lore and results in Pasos, Guhan and Arolanti joining forces). It is
> possible for the Safelstran aristocracy to claim descent from Bailifes
> but I'm inclined this is largely true for western Safelster and I have
> difficulty believing it for places further east and some families are
> more likely to claim not to be descended from Bailifes even if they are.
Yes. I should have confined those comments to Seshnela. From about 1120 to 1240, Tarasdal dominates Safelster and most of Seshnela (with the brief interlude of the Tanisor Alliance from 1180 to 1190). After that the New Dangim Alliance dominates Safelster and Tanisor, until the Sodal kings revolt in 1300. Nedurant becomes dominant in 1325, until the Seshnelan Losle rulers revolt from 1350 to 1375. Estali is then dominant until the rise of Bailifes around 1400. Whew!
The point is that there was lots and lots and lots of war between Tanisor and western Safelster. Rokarism becomes increasingly important during these wars and its leaders throws their support behind Bailifes.
> Secondly I do not believe it is possible for the Lordly children to be
> all married off to offspring of fellow Lords. Only the first born (or
> whatever hereditary rules they would use) would be married to daughters
> of fellow lords. Other kids are going to get sloppy seconds in terms of
> marriage partners. Some second sons may be sent to distant lands to be
> their lords (pretty much like how Greece ended up with a Dane as their
> king) but such opportunities are rare.
Primogeniture is not practiced in Seshnela. So let's say Fej of the noble and powerful Drahcir family is appointed by the King as Count of the Dangim March (I know Genertela calls it a barony but that is wrong). Fej brings members of his kinship group there and where possible appoints them to be deputies, viscounts, and judges. The local minor talars try to hold on to their positions as the traditional judges of various sub-regions, or as market rulers, or whatever. They do this by sucking up to Fej and the Drahcir family. If they are local, they marry into the Drahcir or at least to their favorite companions.
> I like to make a sidebar for a stylistic motion here. The use of
> Talars, Drolars and Horali is seriously offputting when used for modern
> Malkioni. We don't speak of Orlanthi Dars (chieftains) or use native
> names for Thanes, Cottars and the like. Likewise for Dara Happa, we
> speak of Emperors and Overseers rather than Ern Azali Baka Est Ja and
> Arths. I understand your intention to avoid medievalisms (like the use
> of Watchers instead of Bishops) in favour of depicting Malkioni society
> as a Greek City State or even a Minoan Palace Economy run by
> Pythagoreans. But I feel it would be best to use english words such as
> Aristocracy, Helots and Hoplites for example.
Well perhaps not Helots and Hoplites! But point well taken and at some point I am going to have to adopt standard English terms for the Malkioni castes. I don't think "lord" is precisely the right term though. "Noble" may be better.
> I think the Brithini had more variance in their custom than you
> suggest. For example, Arkat was raised in the caste of his maternal
> grandfather. Likewise Hrestol is the first son of Froalar and he was
> also a Talar. When Ylream was born, he was also a Talar. The four sons
> rule is I feel an Arolanit custom.
There are so many conflicting stories about Arkat, I am going to have to put him aside (I've read at least three different versions in the the last week). However, Froalar and his family belonged to failed Brithini. They aged and no longer followed the strict Brithini rules (which I think failed everywhere outside of true Brithini colonis like Sog City and perhaps God Forgot).
> I strongly doubt that the Rokari would innovate with tradition to the
> extent of giving women caste. A woman's virtue would be inherited from
> her mother and not her father. It wasn't done in the good old days
> before Hrestol and to do it now sits rather oddly with their back to the
> basics philosophy.
Here's what I think currently: an unmarried woman belongs to her father's caste (since that determines the caste of her household). A married woman belongs to her husband's caste. Thus if a minor noble marries the daughter of the local chief of the military brotherhood, she becomes a noble (albeit she still does not entirely lose her military brotherhood caste connections and is likely considered "tainted" by her lower caste origin).
That's for legitimate daughters. Illegitimate children always belong to their mother's caste. If the King decides to tumble in the hay with the daughter of his bodyguard, the kid is of the military caste, not the nobility.
> Let's look at the second (and third) sons problem that I mentioned
> before. The aristocracy is steadily increasing in numbers. They don't
> get killed at the same rate as the soldiers even if they do join the
> armed forces. Obviously making the wealthy merchants aristocrats
> alleviates some of the pressure but that kind of makes it hard to avoid
> intercourse with the artisans.
You end up with a lot of nobles looking for work! Seriously. You likely have plenty of nobles that rely on the more successful members of their family, or flock to some powerful noble as companion, servant, officer, or as an adventurer somewhere, seeking to make a fortune so that you can live as a noble ought to.
> In addition there is Guilmarn's bad
> habit of dispossessing titled nobles and awarding the lands to himself.
> Even allowing for duelling clubs that rival the Lunar dart competitions,
> there's still going to be major population pressure on Rokari society
> within a generation or two and Tanisor has had ten since Bailifes came
> to power.
Yes. There's a lot of poor nobles in Seshnela looking for something to do.
Jeff
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