I'm not sure where Sivolic Practice is described as being the basis for "subsequent orthodox martial arts traditions". That statement doesn't appear in Revealed Mythologies, Darja Danad has little to do with Sivoli and everything to do with Kabalt.
> And, of course, the two are described as being very similar in actual physical practice methods.
This similarity being that they practice discipline and other austerities. So what? It doesn't make them the part of the same tradition.
> I think this is an extreme position, not supported by Eastern myth (which is rife with apparent significant acts of mystic magic).
What significant acts of eastern magic are there that cannot be described through affinities, spells or spirits? You can make Kabalt a straight theistic cult and nobody would be any wiser.
> Perhaps it might be better stated as mysticism does not perform active magical acts, but only passive or inward focussed magic
Again, why can't these passive or inward magics be described through affinities, spells or spirits? Are the Three Bean Circus or the Priests of Pavis mystical magicians because they do magic that has a similar effect to what Darja's monks did?
> - though even this would appear to be explicitly refuted for Darja Danad, who is described as being able to 'project his mystical power outward', which sounds indistinguishable from a magic act to me.
Or perhaps what the Easterner thinks of as mysticism and what the God Learner defines as mysticism are two different things. The statement that Darja Danad could project his mystical power outwards is one written from within the Eastern point of view. A God Learner looking at Darja Danad's power projection would describe it in terms of affinities, spells or spirits.
> And refuting or disspelling or resisting an act of magic is still an act of magic, and no one doubts that mystics do this all the time.
The argument was whether this refutation etc could not be described in terms of affinities, spells or spirits. Since Priests, Sorcerers and Shamans are known for dispelling or resisting magics all the time, I fail to see how Eastern Sages doing similar acts mandates the existence of mystical magic. For example Vith's refutations of the Three Antigods are similar to Zzabur's actions in the Wars of Low Magic yet nobody sees the need to make Zzabur a mystic so that he can do what he does.
>> While it is often claimed that this is the case, there is ample evidence that many practitioners of mysticism are interested in the magic it has as a byproduct, including some of those that are revered by mystics - eg the heroes of the Austerity War. It may well be that they shouldn't be so interested, but that is a subtly different question.
> So, there seems general disagreement with your assertion that mysticism has no magic effects (even if it is a byproduct, rather than a goal, of mystic practice), and I, at least, specifically disagree even with that.
I fail to see what disagreement there is between David Scott's position and my own (nor do I see why you feel the need to drag him in and falsely say he disagrees with me)
He says:
As for your response, I don't think the heroes of the Austerity War are the mystics that David Scott was talking about.
> Of course, there is always the possibility that these apparent mystic practices are in some way a hybrid form of magic where mysticism is used only to enhance other magical effects.
What was I saying before? Ah yes.
Mystical practice and meditation can only be used to strengthen
one's attachment to ultimate concepts (and not-so ultimate).
I do find it strange that your response to that statement was find fault with it.
> While that doesn't appear to be the case for the effects manifested by (say) Mashunasen,
What's Mashunasan done?
In neither case, is there a convincing reason for a separate system of magic.
> If it makes you semantically happier, martial arts magic could be
> construed as largely involving strengthening affinities or natural
> magic. But I think to entirely divorce magical martial arts acts from
> mystic practice would be quite misleading,
Since when have I said that mystical practices has no place in martial arts cults, like Darja Danad's or Sivoli?
The remainder of the Darja Danad debate I'll sadly have to put to one side as the style of responses has become unproductive.
--Peter Metcalfe
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