Bell Digest vol09p09-2.txt

To: RuneQuest-Digest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Subject:  RuneQuest Digest Volume 9, no 9: X-RQ-ID 2125
Reply-To: RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Thu's Daily, part 3: Aeolian Church ideas
Date: 28 Oct 93 13:29:05 GMT

>From: (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
>Subject: Vikings Sartar
>Date: 25 Oct 93 18:53:08 GMT
>X-RQ-ID: 2110

>(I couldn't reach you at this address)

Neither could I. Sam, can you give an address for dirict conversation?

>There really don't seem to be many lakes in Sartar. Why this is, I don't
>know. There's Skyfall lake, but that's special.

There used to be lakes in the second age around and upriver of what 
today is known as Upland Marsh.

>There are hillforts. I believe these have wooden walls.

I'd opt for stone-and-wood constructions. Remember the Celtic walls in 
French and south-German oppida? Topped by palisade-like constructions, 
no doubt, but at least the gate area would be stone. And since the 
material is easy to get by (just collect the rocks from your fields), 
why not?

I'm still quite puzzled about various features of Gloranthan geology. 
In my imagination Sartar is a land dominated by glacial sediments - 
morraines, sanders and (yes) lakes. There are reports of an ice age 
during the darkness (or maybe the Storm age) for the West. The Quivin 
mountains ought to be high enough to warrant a parallel minor ice age - 
the Griffin Mountain map shows the Elf Sea at a height of almost 1500m, 
and I'd suppose that eastern Dragon Pass is averaging at about 800 to 
1200 meters above sea level. (Heortlands seaward cliffs are already 
about 300m high, and the land is rising toward the Storm Mountains as 
well as northwards.)

Back to the issue: Is there anything contradicting a (possibly short, 
in God-Time) glacial cover of large parts of Glorantha during the 
darkness? Did Valind and Himile continue fighting the darkness with 
their minions (hollri and snow/dark trolls), thereby shaping much of 
the land?

Ken Rolston in X-RQ-ID: 2114

>It is a Crying Shame we don't have a Sartar RQ book out after all these

This week's Y-award for the biggest truth to Ken! Are you going to have 
anything done about that?

>Sandy Petersen
>Re: Eminently sensible analysis of Gloranthan cults

>   You sound so persuasive and coherent in describing Gloranthan religions in
>a narrative-expository fashion, but the fact remains that the RQIII rules
>imply certain rules-significant judgements to be made from the formal
>structures of cults. This business of lay membership and pantheons has
>certainly not been resolved to my satisfaction at the level of RQIII rules.
>Admittedly, I lean toward the historical models of cults (like Roman
>polytheism) and freeform roleplay models in my appreciation of Glorantha
>nowadays. Certainly Greg's improvisations scarcely glance at the RQIII rules

Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2116

>re: the rarity of Humakti

>The Zulus supported a large number of full-time professional  
>warriors. The old Saxons had plenty of full-time housecarls. The  
>Teutonic Knights were effectively all soldiers. During the summer  
>months, all male Norse were effectively warriors, going i-viking for  
>loot. There's lots of pre-industrial societies that supported large  
>armed forces. Sartar could, too, but it doesn't have to!

All male Norse went i-viking: All, except for the thralls, those 
farmers who had to work their fields to get the meager yield (about 
150% of the amount of sowing grain, i.e. the farmers lived mostly on 
the interest, two thirds went into the Earth again, one tenth went to 
the authorities (in Viking society these were far enough to be 
ignored), and the rest had to last until the next harvest), those too 
old or too young, those who went trading (e.g. among the Finns, forcing 
in taxes in furs which could be traded in autumn on continental 
Europe's markets along with th dried cod for the winter fishing 
season), and those who simply stayed at home to form a defense. The 
relly big expedition forces of the Vikings stayed abroad the full time, 
e.g. the Great Army which harried the "Litus Saxonicus" from 879 to 
893. Those who went finally may have made up your 8% of the populace, 
and they had deities which served both to war and fertility, like 
Orlanth does. Those who stayed away full time - now these might have 
had one third possible candidates for a cult like Humakt's.

Finally to the topic in the subject:

I've started to work up a set of scenarios in Heortland as follow-up to 
one I've adapted to Glorantha from my own game-world. Some of them will 
appear in future issues of Free INT (blatant plug, isn't it?), and I've 
started to write down my ideas in English to be able to commuicate them 
on a global range. I plan to start my (first Gloranthan) campaign in 
Heortland (I hope my prospective players don't read this yet) and to 
spin off as much material for publication as possible.

Right now I'm about to do something about Wolf Pirates in Heortland 
parallel to Vikings in Anglosaxon England for the next issue of Free 
INT. If anybody has something written about this, or is planning to 
write something for Free INT, contact me!
I'm also looking for "pure" Viking material, be it fantasy or history.

>The Aeolian heresy, obviously derived from the Stygian Heresy, got  
>its start in Ralios.

In the wake of Arkat, I supposed.

>Joerg seems to believe that this heresy is  
>popular in Heortland. Since my stuff is packed away, he could be  
>right. I don't recall.

RuneQuest-Companion p.24: 
This is a high plateau occupying most of the eastern part of land 
around Mirrorsea Bay. There is a narrow coastal strip which quickly 
gives way to three hundred meter cliffs eding atop a plateau. [...]
The people here are mostly farmers of Barntar's cult. They worship 
Orlanth as king of the gods, and Ernalda as his wife. Their culture is 
labelled Orlanthi, and follows the pattern of typical hill barbarians 
who worship the Lightbringers."
This IMO describes the other tribes, those not belonging to the main 
area of the Aeolian church.
"The civilizing influence of the country has turned the tribal and clan 
organization into a more cohesive whole reflecting the feudal nature of 
the Hendriki tribe which inherited the rule of the land from Arkat teh 
Conqueror hundreds of years ago."
And presumably they inherited not only the rule, but also the religion.

Genertela Book
p.45: "Religion: The Orlanth pantheon is most important, though the 
Trader Princes practice Malkionism."

(I'd like to do a "Stygian" (can we change this to "henotheist", 
please? Darkness has little to do with most Manirian varieties, Black 
Arkat in the Shadowlands excluded) Malkionist writeup for the Manirian 
Trader Princes as well, with Issaries being the "Holy Spirit" part of 
the trinity (after all everyone accuses his cult of being a God-Learner 
construct - lets show the truth about that). Note also that the 
Malkionist Dormal comes from Nochet, and probably is tied neither to 
the Aeolian or the Issarian henotheist heresy, but to a sea/water 
orientated similar (but hostile) to that of the Waertagi.)

p.49: "The Hendreiki tribe has been altered from its Orlanthi basics by 
heavy Malkioni mercantile, religious, and social impact. But although 
changed, the Theyalan love for political freedom remains. Instead of 
"thanes", the Hendreiki warriors are called "knights", and are armed to 
fight in the same manner as their western overlords. But Heortland's 
knights are not a class of nobles, just another of the free classes. 
Noblemen arer selected from within certain families and must be 
approved by all free tribesmen. The "unfree" class is so abhorrent that 
fewer slaves or serfs exist than in most western countries."

This is pretty much the sum of information I have found about 
Heortland, apart from various references in KoS.

>But it's certainly the case that when the 
>Rokari Hendriki invaded and conquered Heortland, the Aeolian Heresy 
>would make a sensible import. But Heortland's basic and original 
>religion is still the Orlanthi culture, though more civilized than 
>the norm.

Well, I have discussed this with Nick Brooke over several months, 
starting with a scenario I wrote for Free INT 5 (in German, I have 
tried to translate it into English since, but being no native speaker 
my English can be greatly improved...). We agreed that the two Malkioni 
sects were at odds rather than in agreement. I pictured the Aeolian 
church as a Stygian variant, allowing both sorcery and divine magic, 
while the Rokari were (in my scenario) the hardheaded purists which 
usurped the native Malkioni religion. Think of Theoderich's Goths 
(Athanasian Christians) and their problem with getting accepted in 
(Arian) Italy. Of course, here the Athanasian parallel is the native 
one, and the Arians are the invaders.

>Jeorg thinks of the Aeolian Heresy as teaching the Trinity of the  
>Invisible God: Creator outside of Creation, the Guardian Spirit  
>permeating Creation (aka Glorantha, Ginna Jar or Arachne Solara), and  
>Orlanth Lightbringer, the Invisible God born into the world. I find  
>this attractive. 

>I regard it as also possible that the Aeolians confuse the various  
>aspects of Orlanth with these. Hence, Orlanth Rex might be the  
>Creator. Orlanth Adventurous/Orlanth Lightbringer the Spirit of Man,  
>and Orlanth's storm aspect the Physical Universe. 

Thanks, thats a load of intra-cult discussion forming out of this!

>I'm sure the Aeolians also worship Saint Lhankor Mhy, Saint Chalana  
>Arroy, and so forth. I expect their saint worship resembles that of  
>the other Malkioni sects: to gain a patron saint, you must sacrifice  
>POW at worship ceremony at an appropriate shrine to that saint. When  
>you have sacrificed enough POW (the amount varies from saint to  
>saint), you gain the ability to invoke that saint. Invoking a saint  
>may also require you to adhere to some behavior, but it depends on  
>the saint. Invoking a saint can be done instantaneously and  
>repeatedly. Each invocation costs you 1 POW, and gives you a special  
>magic. In general, this magic is superior to Rune Magic, though not  
>as far superior as Rune is to Spirit. 

I know about the Saint concept in non-Stygian Malkioni Church. My aim 
is to construct a Stygian (with air as lemental tie, instead of 
darkness) write-up. Maniria was firmly in God-Learner hands in the 
second age (Clanking City is only 200 miles away!), and there are 
various forms of intermingling Malkionism with theistic cults. Since 
the Heortlendings are living on the far (eastern) end of Maniria, I 
want to give them an almost theistic form of worship, integrating 
sorcery as additional influence.

>For instance, Saint Hrestol costs something like 8 points to gain as  
>your patron (curse my lack of source materials). When you invoke him,  
>your POW is doubled for the next 24 hours. I would expect Saint  
>Issaries to cost something like 4-5 POW, and you'd get Create Market.  
>No doubt if you fulfilled certain special qualifications you could  
>get the result of Create Great Market instead of Create Market. 

This is the classic (3rd age) concept of Saints, as practised in the 
West, and propagated by the Rokari (and Hrestoli, which don't usually 
come to Maniria).
What I had in mind was to give those persons with more than 
lay-investment access to regular divine magic of the appropriate cults. 
On the other hand the Aeolian wizards would have sect-specific sorcery 
tied to the air rune, e.g. specialized versions of Fly, Guided Teleport 
(the homing circle in the temple needn't be enchanted by the user, only 
attuned to), and others I haven't yet thought of.
This is also meant as an experiment how a "Stygian" heresy would 
actually work with RuneQuest rules.
The Saint worship of conservative Western sects like the Rokari might 
well come in as an option. Your musing about St. Issaries' Blessing is 
the first "Stygian" stuff I see.
However, I see the Heortlendings generally as conservative Orlanthi, 
and they'll accept the Law Rune easier with the spiral (Air Rune) in 
its center - the symbol of the Aeolian Chruch of Heortland.
When Richard the Tigerhearted and his bunch of Seshnegi Rokari knights 
and wizards won the crown of Hendrikiland (or as he called it, 
"Malkonwal"), Nick and I had them use the Aeolian temples, but in a 
wave of royal iconoclasm remove the air references from them, leading 
to a very unhappy year of meaningless sermons until the Lunars 
eventually freed the Aeolians from Rokari oppression and allowed at 
least worship to the Creator, the Spirit, and all the (Orlanthi) Saints 
necessary to have the harvest assured, instead of meaningless Western 
I just read the Slaine comic where the title-character gains much 
prestige for gifting another king with kingship over his tribe. I'd 
expect the Heortlendings will explain Orlanth's (temporary) step into 
the background much the same way.

>The Aeolians do not consider Orlanth himself to be a Saint, of  
>course. They practice the four-part division of Society common to the  
>Rokari (farmer, warrior, priest, king), but have modified it to be  
>more suitable for their deity. All four divisions of society get  

I'm just preparing a text that "proves" that the four-part division of 
society is, and always was, an Orlanthi concept which was taken up by 
the Malkionists. There are the classes of king, priest (godi), warrior 
(called thane by the conservative, and cniht (knight) by the Aeolians) 
and farmer (ceorl). Orlanthi and Aeolian society has little or no need 
for lates (in Anglosaxon Kent a class probably of Celtic semi-freemen, 
"worth" half the weregeld of a ceorl) and serfs, like they are likely 
to be common in Ralios and western Maniria, especially in Ramalia. But 
this class is not mentioned in Western legends, either...

>The Farmers get Ernaldaesque magic, but think of it as coming from  
>Orlanth. Saint Ernalda is a separate entity in their theology, not  
>related to Orlanth Homesteader. This fusion of Ernalda and Orlanth of  
>the Aeolians is probably the most irksome one to "normal" Orlanthi. 

Huh? Not Barntar? RQ2-Companion states that Barntar is the primary god 
for the steaders in Heortland and Esrolia. I made him the primary 
"Saint" for them therefore.
I tend to see the cult of Barntar as Ernalda for (Orlanthi, not 
Aeolian) males, with much the same basic rune magic like his mother, 
plus a few plow-specific spells, like the "Plowsharp" spirit spell. 
Think of the relation between Kyger Litor and Karrg in comparison. 
Gentle Vastyr from the Orlanthi "What My Father Told Me" seems to be a 
Barntar-initiate or acolyte/"rune lord" (in Sartarite: godi).

>The Warriors get Orlanth Adventurous stuff. 

And/or Humakt (which is said by some to come from the West, by others 
to have evolved late second age, yet by others (including most 3rd Age 
worshippers) to be the older brother of Orlanth), Elmal (defender of 
the stead, against Darkness), or Urox (defender against Chaos)

>The Priests = Storm Priest.

Plus specialized priests/deacons for certain offices who preside over a 
"Saint's" subcult.

>The Kings = Orlanth Rex. 

And to a lesser extend the chieftains. A lot of the Rex activities like 
the annual Great Wedding are rituals or minor heroquests which affect 
all their subjects. There are lots of adventure ideas to be had out of 
this sacerdotal king stuff, also for normal adventurers. See Free INT 5 
(plug again).

All my stuff which is not quoted from RQ-publications has been applied 
to Glorantha by me. I hope this might become "official", until then, 
all is IMO. More of that to follow soon.

--  Joerg Baumgartner