Bell Digest vol11p04-2.txt

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To: RuneQuest-Digest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
From: (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Volume 11, no 4, part 2 of 2: Primarily Pamalt + a Myth
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>I have always taken the 10/50/90% of income donated to cult to mean  
>exactly that.  Income is the amount of new money you get. 

	In support of this theory (at least, for _most_ cults), I  
actually happen to belong to a church that encourages its members to  
tithe, and hence I pay 10% of my income to the church. This is new  
income _only_. If you join the church and have $1,000,000 in the  
bank, you do NOT pay $100,000 off the top to join. But you WOULD pay  
on the interest you made. 

	Now, 'tis my belief that Humakti figure it differently, and  
simply pay 10% of whatever they have on hand each holy day. In  
addition, I suspect that many Orlanth areas are less than strict  
about the 10%, and leave it up to the individual's donations. Of  
course, a wealthy man is expected to pay more than 10%, to show off  
and support his community standing. 

Michelle Ringo:
>Chris has now killed both of the Yelornans 3 times total and of the  
>six Yelmalians only 1 has been killed.
	The Yelornans have more to prove, and hence may be behaving  
more rambunctiously. 

Dave Cordes:
>What I want to know is if it is possible for a shaman to ressurect a  
>dead character.
	Yes, but it is hard. Harder than you represent in your easy  
10 steps. Let's look at 'em:

>2. Enter the spirit plain and find the spirit.  

	Even a non-divine worshiper's spirit may be nowhere in sight  
at this moment. All men go to be judged of Daka Fal, say most people,  
including many shamans. And only ghosts (which are notoriously hard  
to resurrect) haunt the site of their death. In addition, even a  
ghost or wraith takes some time to form. Where is the spirit in that  
meantime? No one knows, but he's almost certainly NOT by the body.

>9. Force the spirit back into the body, thus bringing the person  
>back to  life.
	Step 9 is a tough one. Note that the body is "dead". Hence, a  
spirit can't possess it, anymore than it could possess a rock or a  
dead stick. A _ghoul_ spirit could possess and animate it. If you  
turned the corpse into a zombie, maybe the ghost could take it over.  
But I see no reaspon to suppose that just putting a spirit into a  
corpse would make the corpse be alive again, even if it happened to  
be the corpse's own former spirit. If your arm is cut off, just  
holding it onto your stump won't make it grow back like new. 

>What is the difference between what I detailed here and the
>resurrection spell?
	1) You're sure to be able to find the corpse's spirit. 

	2) The divine power of the spell prepares the body and spirit  
so that they can once more be joined together. 

> What's the point of disagreeing with Sandy Petersen?  

	I'm starting to like Martin quite a lot .... ;)

Joerg, one of my most noted "disagreers" (it's something like a  
Mouseketeer, but shaped more like a stick insect -- those who've seen  
Joerg and Alex side-by-side know what I mean)
>Pamalt has little magic "of his own", those spells he has are Earth  
>magic. "Earth"touch could as well be called "Gain Elfsense". All his  
>most useful  spells are associate magics. 

	Earthtouch is better than Elfsense, but in any case the magic  
is still earth-oriented, elves being among the noted Keepers of the  
Earth. Pamalt's best spells are DEFINITELY his associate magics --  
that's part of Pamalt's secret to power -- he himself isn't so great,  
but his associate deities each give him their best spell, and he's  
all-around terrific to worship on that account. You know the type --  
second-best at fighting, second-best at magic, second-best at  
hunting, second-best at romance, but no one else is second-best at so  
many different things. 

>Earth and Fire spells keep their balance, there, with Cronisper,  
>Vangono and Lodril among the givers. Pamalt adopted the Agimori, men  
>made by the fire deities. Such an adoption mostly works two ways...
	While Cronisper isn't strongly fire-related, admittedly  
Pamalt likes the various fire gods heaps. HOWEVER, in Pamaltela, I'm  
not sure that they make the distinction between Earth Powers and Fire  
Powers that is made in Genertela. Lodril, even in Genertela, is sort  
of an adopted Earth power. The lowfires are sort of Earthy, too. I  
believe that if you were to walk up to a Pamalt worshiper and ask him  
to classify his pantheon's gods into Earth gods and Fire gods he'd  
think you were crazy. It would be like asking an Orlanthi to divvy up  
his own pantheon into Wind Gods and Air Gods.
	The Agimori were made by fire gods, but they have an equal  
amount of Earth in them. 50-50. 

re: Sandy
	Hmm. Sandy was feeling very cranky when he posted his  
previous missive. Anyone he may have unwittingly grumped at is hereby  
asked to forgive him. I was having a tough week at work. 

>> Orlanth takes the place of the ruling Earth god of that minor  
>>fraction of Genertela in which he is recognized King of the Gods. 

>i.e. Genertela outside Tanisor, Loskalm, Teshnos, Kralorela and the 

>Lunar Heartlands. Not that King of Gods must have much meaning in 

>all of these areas...
	Orlanth is NOT recognized as King in much of Pent, the  
Wastes, the KoI, the northern parts of Fronela (where the Rathori  
live), most of central Ralios, etc. And his support is even weaker if  
you go by population figures rather than geographic spread, since all  
the high-density regions (with the admitted exception of Kethaela)  
are non-Orlanth fans. 

> Cronisper seems to be his father or so (not that that mattered 

>too much among the Doraddi), and could be called a sky god.
	While Cronisper is "kind of" a sky god, I don't think he's  
Pamalt's dad. At least he's not his dad in a number of myths (there's  
probably myths in which he _is_ Pamalt's dad, tho). In a couple of  
stories I have hanging around Cronisper is called Great-Uncle by  

>The lack of any important Pamalt blood-relative: Any idea what 

>caused this? Did his blood-kin perish (Pamaltela has as great a 

>share of dead gods as has Genertela, it seems, and the Old Gods are 

>specially listed in the Prosopaedia)?
	Before Pamalt's reign, there was a collection of gods who  
ruled Pamaltela -- the Old Gods. They cheerfully passed the sceptre  
on to Pamalt partly out of gratitude for his leadership in the  
Darkness, and partly due to recognition of his skill as a leader, and  
partly simply because everyone was recognizing him as ruler anyway  
(sort of like George Washington's first term as president, in which  
there wasn't really an election, just an acclamation). 

	Pamalt's antecedents are unclear. This might be because  
otherwise he would have kinship ties which would make him no longer  
the universally-accepted deity. Whatever the reason, Pamalt does seem  
to suddenly loom out of the darkness like a Western gunfighter-hero  
-- coming from nowhere to save the day. Suggestions by other  
Gloranthaphiles as to what happened to Pamalt's folks are welcomed.

>(Yes, I try to figure Pamalt out as an outsider, the Doraddi mindset 

>escapes me somewhat.)
	Give it a whirl, Joerg! Plunge into the Doraddi brain for an  
hour or two. I've found it oddly refreshing, and it lets me look at  
the old Genertela problems with a whole new POV. 

>Orlanth's myths are more complex in that they unite all kind of 

>conflicting notions - making friends and making foes, cooperating 

>with one's kin and fighting it, etc. If Pamalt, as you say, lacks 

>these myths of conflict, is this because he is less a composite  
>>deity, because his myth is of recent origin only, or because  
>Pamalt's myths were less in the focus of the authors compared to the  
>"more interesting" Genertelan myth?
	Pamalt has myths as complex as anything Orlanth has to boast  
about, and Pamalt, like Orlanth, is frequently torn between  
conflicting obligations, desires, needs, and loves. However, UNLIKE  
Orlanth, he doesn't solve most all of these problems by simply  
prioritizing his obligations (usually with Ernalda on top), and then  
going out and bashing the guys whom he decides are the Bad Guys in  
this situation. Pamalt's myths rarely end with Pamalt beating up  
anybody, which is almost always the Big Scene in an Orlanth story.  
Orlanth is a lot more comic-book-like -- every issue's gotta have a  
big fight scene. Pamalt is like a Jane Austen novel -- slow buildup,  
subtle background activities, etc. 

	Of course, I'm oversimplifying Orlanth here, but you were  
oversimplifying Pamalt before. Pamalt's myths are more recently  
written in a "real-world" type environment, too, since Greg  
originally did tons of Genertela stuff and little Pamaltelan. 

Time for a myth about Pamalt

In the Days of the Darkness, Pamalt was still new to rule. Vangono  
and Sikkanos chafed under his rule. 

	Vangono said to his followers, "I am better fit to rule than  
Pamalt. I am mighty. Look at my spear! I can kill the Chaos. I can  
kill the Dark. I could kill the Bad Man, too, if Pamalt would let me!  
He is no match for me. If we fought, I would easily kill Pamalt. I  
should be Chief, not he!" And his followers shouted praise to Vangono  
and clashed their spears on their shields. 

	Sikkanos grumbled quietly and said, "If _I_ were Chief,  
things would be different. I would sit in the biggest tent in the  
village, and I would have the best woman for my own. I would make the  
Old Women listen to _me_, not me to them. At the feasts, nobody would  
be allowed to eat until I had had my fill." And Sikkanos made secret  
plans in his tent. 

	Pamalt knew about their plots and talked to his wife Faranar.  
Faranar said, "You must stay Chief, my husband. If Vangono were Chief  
all men would fight and fight forever and nothing would be done. If  
Sikkanos were Chief, all men would be oppressed and unhappy forever."  
So Pamalt made plans to stay Chief. 

	One by one, he summoned each of Vangono's warriors to his own  
tent. When the warrior walked within, there was Pamalt in his  
majesty, wearing the Necklace, sitting by the Old Women and the Old  
Men. Noruma in the corner chanted magic rituals to make the world  
work. Faranar spread a feast. Pamalt said, "Whom should be chief?"   
The warrior, awed, and ashamed to admit he had been listening to  
Vangono, said, "You, O Pamalt." Pamalt had the warrior tie a feather  
to Pamalt's stool. So likewise did every warrior. Some folk say that  
if all the warriors had come at once, they would have been braver,  
but they did not, and so they did not. 

	Pamalt summoned Sikkanos to his tent. Sikkanos blew in acrid  
smoke, and stalked around the tent. HE was not abashed by Pamalt's  
wealth and power. He was envious, instead. Pamalt said nothing at all  
to Sikkanos, but asked Faranar, "Should Sikkanos be Chief?" "No, O my  
husband. You are handsome and tall."
	Pamalt asked Aleshmara, and she said, "No, O my son. You are  
kind to my daughter." Pamalt asked Kuangoa, and she said, "No, O my  
nephew. You are rich and generous." Pamalt asked Sikasso, and she  
said, "No, O my nephew. You honor your parents." Pamalt asked  
Yanmorla, and she said, "No, O my nephew. You give much meat to the  
	Pamalt asked Duala, and she said, "No, O my father. I love  
you." Pamalt asked Hondori Mal, and she said, "No, O my uncle. You  
are just and righteous." Pamalt asked Keraun, and she said, "No, O my  
cousin. You burn smoky fires." Pamalt asked Lokomal, and she said,  
"No, O my cousin. You do not waste meat." Pamalt asked Nyanka, and  
she said, "No, O my cousin. Your hands are soft and gentle."
	Pamalt asked Cronisper, and he said, "No, O my nephew. Your  
hearth is warm." Pamalt asked Lodril, and he said, "No, O my  
grandson." Pamalt asked Noruma, and he said, "No, O my nephew. You  
freed the spirits." Pamalt asked Rasout, and he said, "No, O my  
uncle. You hunt not on the sacred days." Pamalt asked Jmijie, and he  
said, "No, O my cousin. You keep the path-sticks bright." Pamalt  
asked Bolongo, and he said, "No, O Pamalt." But Pamalt did not let  
him explain why. 

	Sikkanos was abashed in front of all the people. for no one  
said they would want Sikkanos instead of Pamalt. Sikkanos sat down to  
his place and wept. Sikkanos cried aloud, "I cannot live here any  
more. Everyone knows my shame. I must leave and go far away and never  
come back.". 

	Before Sikkanos was done weeping, Pamalt summoned Vangono to  
his tent. Vangono came in boldly and flourished his spear. Pamalt  
said to Vangono, "Whom do you hate, of all people?" Vangono glared at  
Sikkanos, and said, "I hate Sikkanos more than all, for he is without  
honor." Pamalt said, "Sikkanos is sorrowful, and wishes to leave us  
forever and forever. Yet I will not let him leave unless YOU say that  
he should go." And Vangono was glad and danced. 

	Pamalt said, "Vangono, do _you_ wish to be Chief?" And  
Vangono stood and stared. Pamalt said, "Look at my stool." And  
Vangono saw that all his warriors' feathers were tied to Pamalt's  
stool. And he knew. Vangono said, "I have more honor than Sikkanos.  
I, too, am shamed, and I too, will go away forever."
	Pamalt said, "Sikkanos must only leave if YOU say. Should  
Sikkanos go?" Then Vangono looked at Sikkanos for many hours. Then he  
spoke aloud, "I wish to stay more than I wish Sikkanos to go."
	So both Sikkanos and Vangono stayed in Pamalt's Necklace, and  
so Pamalt stayed Chief. 

NOTE: The people that call Pamalt "nephew", "cousin", or "uncle" are  
probably not actually related to him. 

> The Promalti are entities composed of living fire. Kind of  

> like the Dehore.
>>So, are they minions of Lodril?
	Not particularly. I'm sure Lodril has Promalti in his court.  
But just as there are living shadows in Dagori Inkarth, who are not  
particularly beholden to anyone, so there are Promalti in Pamaltela  
who do whatever they want. 

>> Cities are _exactly_ the same in Genertela and Pamaltela. It's  
>>just that Genertelans think they are good, and Pamaltelans think  
>>they are bad.
>I don't believe that a populous have hold a generally negative view
>about their lifestyle without it becoming self-fulfilling.
	Gimme a break. I meant "Doraddi", not "Pamaltelan", as any  
Reasonable Citizen would have figgered. 


Gerak Kag:
>Just out of curiousity -- how are other people handling resurrection 

>among peoples where Chalanna Arroy is not generally popular?
	In Peloria, the lunar cults have such a spell. Of course, CA  
is popular there anyway, so what the heck. In Kralorela, Yelm  
possesses the Resurrect spell. Ancestor worship also has it, as does  
Eiritha (a piss-poor one, but Seal Spirit just the same). I think  
most folks rely on Divine Intervention, though. 

Nick Eden:
>In the woods there will be those creatures that one expects to find  
>in woods - deer, boars etc etc. Very few if any wild goats and  
>certainly no tame ones. Probably one or two pheasant as well.
	Bears, deer, alynxes, wolves. boars. Probably no pheasant,  
since the main pheasant in the U.S. (and I think Europe, too) is  
actually a Chinese transplant. Grouse & quail, tho. 

	More rarely: an occasional sabertooth from the Rockwoods, or  
a bison from Prax.