Re: Missiles/Grazers

From: <buserian>
Date: Tue Jan 24 16:43:09 2006

Hey All,

Chris, that address is showing up again.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:04:45 -0000 "Chris Ward" <> writes:

> > > This huge difference, IMHO, between DP and NG in game terms is the
> > > of the support versus your own troops - the tribes are painfully
> > > compared to the enourmous power of the spirits you can find. Now
this is
> > > somewhat compensated for by the size and usability of the entire
map and
> > > the lack of magician units. I think that bringing such huge spirits
> > > DP is a very dangerous move without some serious playtesting.

> > Excellent words of caution. Since I'm one of the primary instigators,
> > will try to remember this.
> I'm with Rob as well. I think only the smaller spirit types should be
available. Although no
> reason why someone can't make up on-off scens using malia or wild
hunter etc.

Now that I think about it, my mention of Malia and Oakfed (for example) was, I think, motivated mostly by historical scenarios. For example, tales tell of Oakfed burning the forests of the Elder Wilds. It seems fairly clear that this is actually a mythologization of the burning of the Elder Wilds in the First Age by Arkat and (I assume) Kwaratch Kang. Mostly, any appearance of the Great Spirits would be limited to a specific scenario, and would be sort of a culmination kind of thing. Or perhaps some sort of "Evil Shaman" scenario, where the two or three players have to cooperatively wipe out the evil shaman, its minions, and finally the great spirits it has summoned to destroy the world. Something like that.

For more run-of-the-mill scenarios, only smaller spirits. And any that were native to Dragon Pass would be of the same order as the weaker Nomad Gods spirits, IMO.

> > > > Also, it has occurred to me JUST NOW that the support rules are a
> > > > whacked, too. You have to have support in a chaparral hex, even
if you
> > > > just end your movement there, right. So that means you have to
bring an
> > > > entire herd of cattle with you _just to sleep overnight in a hex_
> > > > you move on? Sounds like myth dictating game rules, which is not
> > > > the best way to do things. Maybe support should be rethought just
a tad.
> > >
> > > I always thought so :-) I just don't know quite how!
> >
> > My current thought is that support isn't required until the second
turn a
> > unit remains in the same hex? Maybe?
> Too difficult to keep track of. Individual players can easily have a
dozen or many more stacks
> in chap.

Yeah, I figured as much, especially given the nature of this list -- lots of people here don't like bookkeeping if it can be avoided.

How about this, then, it's a bit simpler -- at least in how you think about it, if not in actual practice:

If a stack ends its movement in chaparral without support, it is NOT disrupted. If it does not obtain support by the end of the next turn, it is disrupted as normal. Basically, giving stacks one extra turn. Keeping track of it is easy -- if a stack BEGINS its movement in chaparral, it must end the movement/turn with support or it is disrupted. No bookkeeping required then -- it is entirely a matter of where it begins and ends movement:

normal		any		No effect
chaparral	normal		No effect
chaparral	chaparral	Units disrupted

Would that be better?

> > > I quite like simplifying it as well to one table. Any thoughts on
> > > the new table would look?
> >
> > Nope. Well, OK, some thoughts. Basically, I see two options:
> >
> > 1. Make the table more like it was in WB&RM, more like the Missile
> > Table, actually -- static results based on the missile factor and die
> > roll. But maybe replace "1 unit eliminated" with "3 CF eliminated" or
> > like.
> >
> > 2. Allow the attacker to spend some of the CF loss to cause other
> > than elimination, rather than having any set results.
> I'd like to see missile fire more effective, but keep the table

Can you elaborate on why it is _important_ to keep the mechanics of missile fire different than the mechanics of melee/spirit magic/physical magic? Chaotic magic being different is fine, because Chaos is different. But how is missile fire inherently different than melee, spirit magic, or physical magic? If anything, I'd expect to see spirit magic have a different table, since its effects have been envisioned as being as much psychological/magical as they are actual physical damage effects.

> I really don't like the
> idea of "xcf eliminated" rather than 1 unit elimed. Heavy military
> units are relatively more
> vulnerable to missiles than light units in RW history, they
> shouldn't be harder to elim by
> missile fire in the game. In fact this is one of the bonuses already
> existing for missile fire.

A good point, I wasn't aware of this.

> I think that ordering stack for melee should take place _before_
> resolving missiles. Missile
> causalites should be selected top down. If this elims any of the
> stacks commited to melee it is
> too late to call up replacements into the melee units. Also makes
> bison decide whether to risk
> his 6cfers on top of that stack attacking sable (shields the rest
> from melee counter attack, but
> makes them front line missile targets).

This is a great option to explore, it has a nice simplicity to it, and it helps to streamline the rules. Given that spirit magic can already select targets at will, I would say that the order of a stack should be set before ANY combat happens. I would even say that perhaps Chaos magic ought to select from the top down, or perhaps the attacker has to select one of the chits at random, and CAN'T control the Chaos creatures enough to tell them which units to eliminate. (I really like this idea!)

> Debatably sun domers should get some missile defence bonus if
> stacked on top.

Why should they get any more bonus than the Marble Phalanx, Full Moon Corps, or anyone else? I would rather see certain units require one extra "1DD" result to effect, and define those as "elite forces" or something like that. Thus, 1DD would have no effect, 2DD or 1DE would disrupt that unit, 3DD or 2DE would eliminate the unit. I think WB&RM had some concept of elite units, if it didn't I think Dragon Pass could stand to. It would be useful in regular contests, too, if the Results Table is liberalized -- an elite unit could choose to retreat rather than be disrupted, representing its superior ability to deal with defeat and stay organized, as well as their superior armor, weapons, and magic.

I would still want a Forced Back result on the table as well -- my thought is that it goes in this order of severity:

	Disrupt in place
	Disrupt and Force Back

Elite units would have the following:

	Disrupt in place OR Retreat (defender chooses)
	Force Back (no disruption)

The only "rule" for force back is that the units that are forced back MUST move to a hex outside of enemy ZOC if possible, otherwise they can choose which hex to back into.

Still not sure of the best way to do this except to apply different amounts of CF loss to cause different effects, but that doesn't seem very satisfying. I am NOT advocating any return to the old CRT tables, mind you.

> Bison should definately loose their missile defense bonus, and Llama
their vulnerability.

Llama have a vulnerability? I don't recall that...oh yeah, that pesky die roll modifier. Yeah, I could see getting rid of that.

Another thought about Chaos magic -- in keeping with the nature of Chaos, I long ago suggested that any Dragon Pass side that allied with Chaos ought to get the -1 Chaos modifier, like in Nomad Gods. This would not apply to the Lunar Empire if its only Chaos ally is the Crimson Bat (since that is part of the battalia), but any side that allied the Hydra or Hungry Jack would be subject to this modifier. I still think this is the case. (Note that, despite the poor choice of coloring, neither Delecti, the Tusk Riders, or the Giants are Chaos creatures!)

I also think that, if they are used in combat, Chaos units MUST be fed. Chaos magic is far too powerful sometimes, especially when the hydra has many heads. My thought is that if the defending stacks do not contain enough units to completely feed the Chaos unit's hunger (i.e., not enough of them exist to completely satisfy the results of Chaos magic), attacking units must be eliminated instead. If there aren't enough attacking units, the Chaos unit is eliminated. Basically, take the existing Crimson Bat rules and apply them in a reduced fashion to all units with a negative MgF.



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