>I do not believe that it is the way that Greg or Sandy or the
>majority of digest members conceive of the world.
While I can't speak for Greg or the majority of digest members, Loren is correct in his estimation of my own opinion.
On the other hand I don't believe that Gloranthan sin is based entirely on the initiate's beliefs. In other words, a sincere Gloranthan doing something bad (in the eyes of his god) will suffer cult retribution for it, even if he doesn't know he is sinning. The punishment may be less, of course.
For instance, a Humakti under the geas "use no poison" who uses a sleep drug on his sword, telling himself that this is not poison, and feeling good about it, will still find that his sword shatters in future combats (unless he's illuminated). All this in my opinion, of course.
Colin Watson:
> If a single rogue priest is feeding false geases to his initiates,
>god isn't going to shut-down the whole temple. He likely doesn't
>know which priest is doing the dirty ... he'd probably hope that the
>local worshippers would be able to fix the problem themselves
I concur with Colin as well. I _do_ think that the deity is capable of taking direct action of a sort, and I think that the deity is able to sense some quite specific things. For instance, if a Humakti Sword was feeding false geasa to his initiates, the god would know something was rotten in Denmark, and probably start sending bad dreams to his initiates in the region, with blade-winged ravens and dagger-toothed wolves screeching the presence of sin and heresy in the area, and urging his worshipers to sort it out. Presumably the worshipers would, after getting visions like this, try to sort out the problem. If the false Sword got too powerful, then I predict Humakt would try to send Swords and initiates from neighboring, untainted sites to the diseased area to root out the problem.
And if the innocent as well as the guilty suffered in the target area, that's too bad, but it's really no more than lancing a boil from the god's point of view.
In Mike's defense, I agree also with his contention that the gods are not the creature of his priests. I've said before (and been assailed for it) that the gods aren't simply big nullities created by the beliefs of their worshipers and wavering and changing with every alteration of culture or faith on the part of their worshipers. I believe that there _is_ a "there" there, and that the gods have an ultimate reality.
The existence of many different forms of Yelmalio and many different forms of Orlanth does not prove to me that these deities are subject to the whims of their worshipers. Rather, it demonstrates that even the most faithful mortals have yet only an imperfect understanding of their deities, whose aspects are many.
Peter M.
>Loved the Kralori stories. I suppose Mi Ka De and all were in a
>response to Nils' question?
At RQ CON, during the Lore Auction, someone asked why the Kralori emperors had non-Kralori names, and wondered openly if this was a clue that the emperors were, in fact, non-Kralori. Greg and I both agreed that the emperors were Kralori as all get out, and Greg affirmed that the non-Kralori names were mispronounced western versions of the original names, so Mi Ka De was, of course, the "correct" Kralori pronunciation of Mikaday.
Colin
>Illumination is the cancer of the gods.
Peter M. replies
>>hmm. Illumination has been practiced in Dara Happa throughout its
>>history and Yelm isn't dead yet.
Actually, Illumination was almost completely absent throughout the Second Age and most of the First. Only in the Lunar Empire and during the 75-year-long Gbaji Wars was illumination available. And even during the Lunar Empire's time, there have been lengthy periods when illumination was rare (such as during Sheng Seleris's reign of terror).
The Gbaji Wars led to catastrophic destruction in Peloria. Illumination in the First Age was manifestly a world-endangering terror. Whether you blame the destruction on the illuminated Arkat, the "dark side" Gbaji, or the "light side" Nysalor, 'twould not have come if not for illumination.
In the Lunar Empire, Yelm is, in fact, dwindling fast, because of illumination. The old Dara Happan cults are enfeebled and waning. Their stern and uncompromising nature encourages few converts, while the open Lunar way promises both temporal power and personal pleasure. And of course, whenever a Yelm worshiper's son fails to be initiated into Yelm, then the line stops dead -- no more Yelm (since it's hereditary). There are large areas where no more Yelm worshipers are available to be the old-style benign nobility, so the ancient houses have been replaced with Lunar bureaucracies.
>Only the Orlanthi and the Malkioni actually believe illumination is
>evil and the latter has some nerve after giving the world Arkat.
In the first place, it's not _just_ the Orlanthi and Malkioni. In the second place, the Orlanthi and the Malkioni are the only peoples to have dealt substantially with illumination -- they're both bitter foes to it, now. Think about it.
In the third place, you miss the entire point about Arkat. Whether Arkat was Gbaji, Nysalor, or just plain Arkat, he was the creature of Illumination. He could not have existed, been what he was, did what he did, saved what he saved, had illumination not created him. Some people say that Nysalor caused Arkat to come to Dorastor to kill Gbaji, who was wreaking such harm. Others say that Nysalor _was_ Gbaji, but still knew that Gbaji had to be slain, and Arkat was the man for the job.
In the fourth place, at the Lore auction, Greg was asked who, in all Glorantha, he most admired. The answer, "Arkat." So an unthinking hatred of this person may possibly be missing something subtle about his character. I know heaps about Arkat, and he's more than just a mindless killer. Let's just say that Arkat knew _just_ what he was doing when he slew Nysalor. He was neither ignorant nor deluded. You've perhaps heard the biblical question: "What does it profit a man if he save the whole world and lose his own soul?" Arkat knows.
Ian Gorlick
>Please don't give me credit or blame for Alison's comments.
How do I tell whether it's Alison or Ian?
>I like the Thanatar ceremony.
Don't forget to enclose the sacrifice's head in an armored cage, so that the rats can't get at it and ruin all the goodness.
SPEAKING OF CHAOS
Mike Dawson's "Rat and Weasel Wisdom" on the back of his
latest Codex is the very best broo dialogue I've ever read. "How'd
you ever survive poppin' your ma?" Indeed.
Peter M. liked my Kralori stuff and I'm a sucker for unsolicited praise, so here's another one:
THE SNOW MONKEYS
A troop of mountain monkeys one evening were sad and lonely
and bored. While pottering about aimlessly, one came across a
glowworm. "See!" he chattered. "Fire! Let us be warm!" So the monkeys
gathered round the insect, pushed tufts of dry grass and leaves over
it, thrust forward their hands and toes towards the grub, and enjoyed
themselves immensely, imagining that they were warm.
One monkey in particular, felt exceedingly cold, and kept blowing on the grub to increase its flame, paying much attention to it. A bird, watching this display, finally could stand it no longer, and flew down to the monkey. "Sir," said the bird. "You need not put yourself to all this trouble. This is not a fire, but only a glowworm." The monkey completely ignored her, and kept working with the glowworm. The bird, undeterred, continued to inform the monkey of his error, when suddenly the monkey, vexed by the bird's importunities, grasped her and crushed her upon a log, breaking face, eyes, head, and neck so that she died.
SOME KRALORI PHILOSOPHY
Almost uniquely in Glorantha, the Kralori empire engages in a
rather practical form of dualism. Not only do they believe that in
order to have wisdom, there must be folly, but they also believe that
folly, error, and evil all have their place, at least when properly
regulated. Hence, the Emperor's personal guard is made up of members
of the heretical Path of Immanent Mastery. The Kingdom of Ignorance
is an integral part of the empire. Enemy powers are politely asked as
to where and when they wish to have a battle to determine the outcome
of wars.
Even pernicious foreigners are allowed into one city of the Empire, where they can get passes to travel elsewhere in the empire. In this way the Emperor controlls iniquity by licensing it.
For instance, citizens who do not belong to the Empire-spanning Godunya cult must still support the Emperor, or else the entire populace would be at risk. So of course non-members of this beneficial cult must pay an additional tax. This tax's magnitude varies with the total percentage of membership of a given city. Hence, if your city has very few Godunya cultists, and you are not a Godunya cultist, you must pay a very high tax. But if you are the only non-cultist in town, then your tax is relatively low. In this way, the emperor hopes to even out and balance non-belief in his divine majesty throughout the emperor.
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