> Alex said [the Kitori] they definitely weren't one of the
> "four large tribes of civilized Orlanthi" mentioned in Genertela Book.
It must be Joerg! ;-)
Yes, but my main thrust was trying qualify what was meant by "large"; i.e., certainly not _this_ large, >100,000
> No, they aren't in that sense, but anyway, Alex, you did perform a
> Divination, and found that the four tribes nowadays aren't that
> prominent in Gregs picture of Heortland any more
I think he said "they don't exist", or words to that effect. (Ruthlessly Gregging himself...) Indeed, that was why I was so sure the Kitori weren't one of them. ;-) As to the exact largeness, numbers around 10,000 were kicked around in earlier discussions, weren't they? Sounds the right big-O to me.
> Maybe
> the Kitori help supporting Whitewall in peacetime, too, since I agree
> with RQA 4 inasmuch as there will be a troll quarter, and likely human
> Kitori as middlemen as well.
I'd be happier to say that it was a Volsaxi city, with a _Kitori_ quarter, which naturally includes trolls, rather than as RQA4 seems to envisage, human Kitori ruling and forming most of the population, with a few token Volsaxi and trolls.
> > I'm not sure what is meant by "tribal confederation" (tribe, or
> > confederation of tribes?), but I don't agree that the Volsaxi were
> > founded around 1570.
> The Volsaxi are a confederation of several tribes of Sartarite size and
> make-up, if that sophisticated.
I had misremembered Tales #6 as calling the Voxsaxi chaps clans, rather than tribes, but KoS does, for one. While they're necessarily not the same as the much smaller Sartarite clans, and I hesitate to assert that they'd describe themselves as such, whatever the Sartarite term is, my feeling is that the Kurtali, etc, are the "basic operative social unit". I.e., that any subclan or bloodline is not politically important, and may be transient. Certainly the Volsaxi are referred to as being a tribe themselves, in some places (such as KoS).
The situation of clan (and bloodline?), tribe, tribal federation, and kingdom all simultaneously existing as levels of organisation seems a tad unwieldy for a supposedly traditionalist, or even backward area.
As to when they were founded; hrm, I understood Greg to be saying that (what's now) Volsaxiland has been in and out of Heortland for yonks. But perhaps he was speaking of the territory, rather than the occupants. So previously they had the wrangles with the Kitori (and others?) that they now have with the Volsaxi?
> They are similar to the Alda-churi confederation, IMO,
This is a much more "civilised" region, so four or five tier local goverment (maybe six, seven or so under under the lunars) seems a more likely decadence.
> and their "king" could be called "prince" as well,
> if that wasn't such a modern term.
Pre-Broyan, a title similar to that used by the Sartarite tribal kings (which I'm sure is different from that used by capital-K kings, this just isn't reflected by the english text) would be used, I think. While behaving themselves wrt to the Hendriki king, he'd probably have a more "feudal" title as well. (Duke of Whitewall, Lord Warden of the Marches, or some such.)
> Not much love is lost between Kitori and Volsaxi, IMO.
I agree there's some emnity, but the "Earlier Argrath" story seems to indicate that only the Kurtali tribe/clan among the Volsaxi go beating them up on a regular basis.
> I don't think the Sun Domers were part of the federation except during
> the uprising - they seem to have given up their clan structure for a
> Dara Happa-imitating theocracy from the start, or is this impression
> wrong?
This would my guess too, give or take. Resemblance to Dara Happa is fairly slight and unintentional though, I feel. A more theocratic structure is almost a given, from the fact that the lands were granted to a cult, and to a cult of semi-fanatic dissidents at that. This is really an internal matter, though, so they could in principle join more tribally-organised bodies.
I say RQA4 characterises
> > The human Kitori [as] being 95% vanilla Orlanthi
> Some Orlanth-worship, albeit heavily distorted, seems ok by me.
I meant "culturally Orlanthi"/Theyalan, not (just) Orlanth membership. I certainly don't suggest that there would be no Orlanth worship! Rather I demur from the idea that the "human Kitori" and the "troll Kitori" have essentially separate sets of deities, worship of same, different (and hence almost certainly conflicting) notions of rulership, etc.
> (I expect no Sandals of Darkness subcult members among the Kitori
> when Argan Argar can give the spell without a spell-quest...)
Or with an easier one, at least. Obviously Orlanth and AA will be associates among the Kitori, so perhaps this is the AA->O spell, and his shrines entirely replace, or just get confused with, the Sandals ones.
Alex.
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