> This is a direct crib from Greg's early First Age writings (25+ years old
and is
> puzzled that [I] thought it worth setting out in detail, given that it's now
> something of a fait accompli (published on the Net, used in the freeform,
> blessed by Greg and Sandy, etc.). Why defend orthodoxy? ;-)
To twist it into making the Stygian church the carriers of Orthodoxy for the early 2nd Age. <g>
Seriously, the importance of the Stygian Church of Malkionism in the early 2nd Age could have been immense without any trace surviving the conquest of Ralios around 740. There is no counter-evidence that Safelstran knighthood did not follow the Fifth Caste or a Near Saint model. Maybe under Arkat "knight" and "heroquester" became synonymous?
[Hrestol's Teachings]
>> Being basically a model to form a force of knights out of a populace
>> beset by enemies, not a reformed society.
> Not entirely, Joerg. That was Hrestol's *initial* teaching in the land of
> Seshneg, which was adopted wholesale by that kingdom despite their exile of the
> saviour/hero. The later teachings of the Hrestoli Church are far more
> wide-ranging in their impact on society, being an attempt to define the
> relationship between the individual's conscience and the divine law.
Which is exactly what they exiled Hrestol for, isn't it? I feel that 1st Age Seshnela was about as split and diverse in its Malkionism as 3rd Age Safelster (or the Stygian church in general) is.
Are these later teachings still Hrestol's own, or those of his pupils explaining why he meant something different from what he actually said?
> In a nutshell, Hrestoli theology says that in certain circumstances you should
> look not at the letter of the Law, nor at the spirit of the Law, but rather at
> the Will of the Creator who gave us the Law, when deciding how best to act. This
> is "heresy" to Brithini and Old Malkioni, but goes without saying to all the New
> Malkioni churches descended from Hrestol's teachings.
Old Malkioni: Did any survive, except in Nochet's sewers and God Forgot? (I take it that these were the only colonies not visited by Hrestol, due to his untimely demise in Sogolotha. IMO Malkion visited there, though, and may have lent some truth to Richard's claim of ruling "Malkonwal" translated to modern Western about "a place (city?) where Malkion lived".)
>> I suppose the natives of Akem were descendants of a Sea nymph and a >> Storm God, like Malkion himself and their neighbours on Ygg's Islands.
I.e. mortal Malkioni converts of the aboriginal (non-Hsunchen) populace. The Third Eye Blue people came from somewhere near Akem, too, didn't they? Someone theorized that Tarnwall was built by them.
> I'd assume the population of early First Age Akem could be divided into four
> distinct chunks:
I agree about 1st Age, but meant pre-Dawn Akem, too.
> 3) the mortal Malkioni commoners populating the city and surrounds,
> living their lives according to the Prophet Malkion's Solace of
> the Body and acknowledging all the entities which participated
> in the "I Fought We Won" (i.e. early Malkioni polytheism);
Brithini (or Kingdom of Logic) descendants, or converts? If the latter, from Hsunchen stock (original, or adopted - sorry about this return of the dreaded Origin of Men thread, but I'm still not satisfied with the answers) or similar origin as Malkion himself and the Ygglinga?
>> the heart of the [pre-God Learner] religion in Ralios.
> This is wrong, as the heart of Hrestolism was always Akem,
Says the God Learner (or his successor, the retro-GL). So you say that Carmania holds the true 2nd Age Hrestoli style, and not the Stygians/Henotheists? Then you're as selfish as I am with my claim. <g>
> while the largest and
> strongest Malkioni land was Seshneg. The only thing that Ralios was the heart of
> in the early Second Age is Arkat's Dark Empire, which is hardly an example of
> mainstream Malkionism...
As defined by the Return to Rightness Crusade. In fact, after the death of Nralar the old, Ralios was a main player even in Seshnela, and Gerlant was a minor kinglet when Arkat came. Did he cash in all the proceedings of the Tanisoran conquest, or did the Brithini and Old Malkioni of Arolanit (yeah, IMO they were still around before the Rightness crusaders classed them as Dronals, and proved that).
> Whether or not pre-God Learner Stygian thought was unified by Councils is about
> as useful a line of inquiry as how many Power Spirits can dance on the head of a
> pin.
You mean because history has been rewritten, and thereby changed? Ok, so it has no relevance for 3rd Age Glorantha, but what if I decided to play out the fall of Paslac's Empire? Be it as DP-like boardgame (would be an interesting campaign) or as RQ or Moonquest campaign (I won't, yet, being stuck in 1617 Heortland for the time being. That won't last forever, though).
> Even if it was, that didn't last for long, and there are quite obviously no
> useable remnants of it in the modern day.
It lasted about as long as Carmanian religion ruled in Dara Happa.
> The old Arkati Church of Stygia was
> united in any case, but this unity was wiped out: quite deliberately by the God
> Learners, but inadvertently due to the obscure, personal and tenebrous nature of
> Arkati/Stygian revelations in any case.
Hmm. Do you mean New Idealist Hrestolism (the new mass movement to heroquesting, let's assume for their benefit, _with_ respect) will dissolve regardless how they survive the Hero Wars? (IMO they are too far off to be drawn into any stunt by any Argrath.)
> In the 1620s, it makes no difference how united it used to be
Right. It does make all the difference up to 780 S.T. (when the last traces of unified Stygianism were reported extinct, about a century before the same was said about Umathelan Vronkali).
Don't ever accuse me of orthodoxy...
End of Glorantha Digest V1 #199
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