They seem to agree all right, but not with that... Rarely, in the field of net.conflict, has so much traffic been generated by a single line, all of it saying "No!"
Peter Michaels:
> It's just that, for Humakti, the laws
> are different. Their family and clan will not be subject to
> claims for weregeld due to deaths they cause
I think this is only true in cases where his family and clan are _not_ his family and clan any more, due to a formal kinship-severing ritual.
and also:
> In Safelster, I think there are two different Humakti groups.
> One is made up of the (Hrestoli) Malkioni Knights who worship
> Saint Humakt, the "Angel of Death."
This is an odd place to find Hrestoli, at least of the New Idealist sort. These guys sound altogether like Henotheists, though that description does leave just about everything else about them up for grabs.
David Dunham:
> 1. I don't think all Sartarite Humakti go through the Greydog ritual of
> kinship severance.
I certainly agree with this. In fact, I don't think all Lismelder do it, either. Mythic precedent would seem to suggest that any Humakti can do so, if he wishes. In some places this would be almost pro forma, while in others it would be a radical, family-rending-their-hair step.
> I think the mainstream Sartarites in effect marry into
> the Humakt temple (when you marry into a new clan, you become a member of
> that clan, but still have ties to your original clan).
I have to do a double-take when David expounds on Orlanthi custom, as I'm rarely sure if he's talking of Orlanthi-all Orlanthi, or his own Ralian lot. But in Sartar, I don't think one "marries into" a clan in this way. Rather, you're still a part of your own clan, but have (very) strong ties to your spouse's.
Even if this were so, it still seems a very loose comparison, since in a "normal" Sartarite marriage, it's the wife who goes to live with her husband's clan. Are Swords ritually Wives of Humakt? I don't see it that way, myself (though it'd be an excuse for reintroducing priests, I suppose).
> No. Would the King of Sartar keep a band
> of outlaws? No, because he wouldn't be upholding the laws of the kingdom.
Since his other bodyguard are Telmori, this could be a dangerous line of reasoning...
and elsewhen, DD oelms:
> Alex opines
> >But I wouldn't be surprised if many Lismelder chieftains were mainly
> >Orlanthi chaps, but also initiated into Humakt, for example.
> I would, because Lismelder Humakti (well, at least it's definite for the
> Greydog clan) definitely sever kinship ties.
I don't think it's "definite" at all; Nick's said that it happens, notably upon entry to Sword status, not that it was Compulsory. I think David Hall suggested something a little stronger, but not that All Lismelder Humakti are severed from their original, and put in the Sword clan. Consider Greydog himself; a Humakti, who founded a clan...
I think kinship severing can be interpreted in a number of ways. You might do exactly what Humakti did, and sever your ties with your siblings, because one of them just screwed up, or more significantly in legal terms, with your entire bloodline. This would allow you to remain perfectly happily in your clan, but not legally responsible for your immediate kin. And no longer legal for them to kill you, too, incidentally (or otherwise).
Perhaps the most common instance of (the) kin-severing (myth) is leaving the Orlanth cult when you become a Humakti. This is a very widespread practice, I believe. It may apply to other cults too, especially Lightbringers.
> Oops, I keep forgetting that Lismelder Humakti don't sever their kinship,
> only Lismelder Swords do. Strike the above. Clans aren't going to want
> Humakti Swords as chieftains for a large number of reasons.
Largely true, I should think, though the Sword "clan" is one obvious exception. Among the Lismelder I wouldn't think it was unknown, though. Cf Greydog himself, again.
Nick Brooke:
> They are far too heavily associated with defined legal functions
> (like Champion or Oath-Taker, or being the guy at the Thing who
> stares at the opposition to put them off lying) to be outside
> Sartarite law.
Yup. You have to think that Humakti approve thoroughly of Law, and of its human manifestations, in general terms. You have to Die, because (altogether, now) That's The Law, Ma'am. And being culturally Orlanthi, they're (almost) entirely approving of Orlanthi law. Doubtless, given their druthers, they'd tinker with it somewhat (delete the bit about wergelds, for non-"murderous" slayings, by definition including for Humakti add; add in something to the effect of Chalana Arroy priestesses needing a brisk spanking for naughtily going around resurrecting people (well, at least the cute ones)), but it's hard to see them rejecting its whole basis and legitimacy.
I think in fact that Humakti are not infrequently law officers, or the ad hoc versions of such known among the Orlanthi. While the Town Sheriff, to lapse into Horse Operisms, is likely to be an Orlanthi, the Federal Marshal could well be a Lone Humakti.
Loren rubs it in:
> No. I believe you're alone there. Eurmal, however, defines outlaw
> for the Orlanthi.
Doubtless you dudn't mean this as literally as I'm about to take it, but Eurmal doesn't "define" outlawry, since although all Tricksters are at least formally Outlaw, not all outlaws are trickers.
Sandy Petersen lauds Peter Michael's thoughts on headhunting ethics:-
> > The first warrior ... didn't sell his body, and he didn't sell the
> >body of his brother either. He was, to put it simply, responsible
> >for his own actions. It was a straightforward sort of code - a
> > good place for a warrior to start.
as:
> A stupendous summary of the Humakti Code.
I feel that the existence of Humakti military units, and come to that the Humakti code of honour itself, which can put the cultist's life a distant second to other considerations, represent something of a move away from this sort of ethic. So they're in a sort of "transitional state", between the pure ethic of the Noble Savage Warrior, and the
The Lunar "equivalent" has of course gone a good deal further; the main business of the Empire god of death is ordering _other_ people to their possible getting-it-in-the-neck. They may even be on their way to having their own Douglas Haigs. (One can only hope not Alexander Haig, too...)
> While they may alter the standard code of honor somewhat from
> the run-of-the-mill Orlanthi, this is absolutely perceived as
> Changes, Additions, and Deletions from a basic code, not as a whole
> different attitude towards life.
I think this describes the situation pretty well, but the Huamkti themselves may not look at it this way. Having severed the ties of kinship (to whatever degree), they consider themselves free of its mores. A hypothetical Objective Observer would doubtless snigger heartily (from a safe distance) at such an idea, as the degree to which he's conditioned by his society, even in respect of how he may be reacting against it, would be very evident.
Kevin Rose:
> Paul Michaels had an interesting idea about Humakti motivations. One
> problem with this is that Humakt was the primary war god of the
> Carmanians. And the Carmanians did fight in very effective large
> organized armies, quite unlike the other areas mentioned.
This is only a problem if you think it's the "same" Humakt in some strong sense. If one starts with the premise that the Carmanians worship a god with only the a priori similarilies of representing Death, and Division, and have a name beginning with "H", rather than one with a terribly similar cult, or with Object Identity to the Sartar guy in a Monomthic sense.
Loren muses further on these guys:
> They took Humct with them, and Worlath the Lord
> of the Air, Ehilm the bright solar disk, and their other gods (now
> named by post-GL Malkioni as the "false gods").
With the possible exception of Humct, whom Nick assures us they _do_ worship, though he doesn't say under what name, I don't think the Carmanians worshipped these False Gods. These rather seem to represent a God Learner summing up and dismissal of the theistic practices they were exposed to early on in the Evil Pagan East.
> Nick has revealed that they left their Farmer caste behind.
> [I'd like to know how they justified that, by the way. Don't rulers
> have an obligation to protect and rule their peasantry?]
It sounds mildly fishy to me, too. What may have happened is that some of the Farmer class tagged along, though not the full complement, and when Karmania was conquered, there was a sly bit of social rearrangement, wherein (Orlanthi) all the natives got to be "Farmers", while many of the incomers availed of the opportunity to "promote" themselves in caste from their original lowly status. Even this was probably by no means an entirely complete process, so the result would be a Farmer class with mainly, but not 100%, Pelorian blood, and the reverse true of the upper classes.
> How did the
> proto-Carmanians worship all their gods, though? I don't think they
> worshipped the Creator with an active cult. How did they worship the
> other gods? Did they have mutually exclusive mystery religions, as
> modern Gloranthan theists do?
Generic theistic religions aren't really "mystery cults", I don't think, though an over-zealous reading of the rules might make on think so. At the risk of banging my familiar drum about associate worship, let me briefly say: "Associate worship, associate worship, associate worship!".
The Carmanians, though, _do_ have this sort of mystery cult, I think. While everyone worships the Invisible Sun or whomsoever in public, there are lots of different groups scuttling around, who either have their own deities entirely, or put a quite different light on the public worship. I bet they work a lot like Mithaic initiation, so cult-hierarchy fetishists will doubtless get a _real_ charge when someone rushes their Long Forms into print. "Cwor! 17 different degrees of initiation!"
And completing the Cycle:-
Warrior (another of Tom's many Zundered net.personalities, apparently):
> Yes I like Nick's elucidation that Humakti are foreigners and can be put
> under a clan's protection albeit no longer kin.
Although the Sword Story calls Humakt a foreigner, I don't think even kin-severed Humakti are normally Outsiders to this degree. In the Lismelder model, these Humakti are no longer in your clan, but are still part of the tribe. In other tribes, they are probably considered Strangers, instead.
Alex.
End of Glorantha Digest V1 #217
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