Not so. There are numerous occasions on record in which "civilized" armies have had non-standard equipment (such as among the Hundred-Year-War English, or the Landsknecht), and likewise plenty of "barbarian" armies that have had highly standardized gear (such as the 4-6th century Franks). The degree to which your gear matches that of your comrades has nothing to do with your level of civilization -- it's purely a matter of combat technique.
>Examples abound of organised states being able to create armies
>basically from scratch, from Philip of Macedon
Philip of Macedon took almost two decades to get his army in shape to fight the Greeks. Plus, by Greek standards, he _wasn't_ an organized state, but simply a half-barbarian.
Look, Aden, your whole point here seems to be that "civilized" states have some kind of advantage in war because they can make armies faster. It simply ain't so. If you insist on continuing this thread, I advise you to select a small band of interested readers, and e-mail it privately.
>during the Hanibalic wars a generation was decimated, and their arms
>and armour lost in a series of gigantic defeats - yet the republic
>was able to raise whole new consular armies, and produce the arms
>and armour to equip them
The Second Punic war represented a supreme effort on the part of the Roman people, not a standard by which we should measure all other civilized empires. Such an impressive effort was not managed again by _anyone_ until possibly 1941-45 in the Soviet Union. I suspect no Gloranthan land has succeeded since the Dawn in such a matter, except possibly the Western lands in the Gbaji wars.
The Roman deeds were exceptional, the taxes inflicted to support the war, exceptional, the percentage of population in the army enormous (one author figures it as 7.5 percent), and these soldiers had to be maintained year after year in distant areas. I admit that only a civilized empire with a money-based economy could have done this, but MOST civilized empires would have fallen flat on their faces.
>Or China - when they created their (admittedly very low quality)
>million man
They didn't do this overnight and, as you mentioned, it was a failure. They, in fact, had _failed_ to create an army. All they had was a huge semi-armed rabble.
>Or the Achaemenids when faced by Alexander
The Persians (of whom the Achaemenids were but a branch -- form whom Darius descended, in fact) did not raise any new armies to fight Alexander. They simply tried to re-train their old soldiers, with striking lack of success. This was probably because they didn't take enough time to do it. Note that Alexander was so impressed by their efforts that he made plans to dump the phalanx in favor of adopting the Persian style of warfare! But before he could go through with it, he died, and his subordinates, who unimaginatively assumed that Alexander's victories were entirely the result of his tactical system, maintained it unchanged until the Romans kicked their asses a few centuries later.
>These efforts are beyond disorganised states or tribes
Sioux under Gall & Crazy Horse. Gauls under Vercingetorix. Germans under Arminius. Zulus under Shaka. Lettow-Vorbeck's Askaris. All were non-civilized folk who succeeded in radically changing their fighting tactics and techniques basically overnight. This discussion is getting us nowhere. Most military authorities I've read agree that the advantage of a civilized state over a barbarian state (before gunpowder) consists of one feature -- the ability to maintain a standing army.
re: Sorcerous Enhance INT
I am willing to believe in a Sorcerous Enhance INT spell if and only if it cannot be used to raise INT above your original die roll. I.e., if you'd lost INT due to Tap or disease, you could have a spell maintained on you to kind of mitigate the results.
> Certainly! The Lunars love to help other nations "switch blades".
>I'm sure the citadel guards of Elkoi look mighty fine with gleaming
> Lunar Army surplus scimitars
>> Hey! Another Lunar/Soviet parallel... Must be catching.
>>>No no no, Lunars are the Americans in Saigon City, protecting the
>>>Tarshites from the evil Orlanthi and handing out M14s.
Hey. As a confirmed Anglophobe ;) 'tis clear that the Lunars are the British in India (hoping to make it a future colony), arming tribe A and outfitting them in red coats to help overthrow tribes B and C. Neither the Soviets nor the Americans are credibly believed to want to _own_ their minor allies. See, that's why we're (i.e poor ol' Soviets and still-surviving U.S.) the good guys (non-Imperialists).
Nick
>(What we really need, of course, is a list of the "useless" and
>"civilian" sorcery spells that most Viziers possess - -- something
>like Sandy's excellent piece on "Folk Magic" for alternative uses of
>Sorcery).
Okay. Here goes:
FOLK SORCERY: Bless Object, Enhance Characteristic Haste, Hinder, Holdfast (formerly Bind), Locate Object, and Mystic Vision. Project Sense and Skin of Life are obvious.
Animate Bronze is usually called by its proper name of Animate Plow -- a fine spell which lets you take tend a field regardless of whether you own a mule or not.
Animate Handle (aka Animate Wood) is helpful for activating a broom, dustmop, or other utensil for cleaning cobwebs out of the upper corners of a room, sweeping the roof, etc.
Diminish Size is of course the perfect hunting tool. Your typical hound is only SIZ 4-5 anyway, and this way it's easy to send him right down the badger hole. Or you can shrink a cat to the size of a rat, and send him into the walls of your house after the mice. Or you can squeeze through that hole in the fence. 1001 uses, really.
Dominate [species] is about the best anti-vermin spell there is. Zap that POW 2 crow and he just sits there till you thwack him with a stick. Then you can eat him. Good for nailing mice and rats, or hunting squirrels too. All these critters have a little bitty POW, so it doesn't take much effort to nail em. Not so great for insects, because there's so many of them the spell's hardly worth the effort. But a day and an expenditure of 5-10 MPs and you can practically rid your house of mice.
Produce and Evoke [Energy] are handy as all get out, once you know the spells by their proper names.
Produce Cold = Preserve Food Evoke Flame = Light Stove Produce Heat = Hot Lunch Evoke Lightning = Fast Cook. Evoke Water = Douse Fire, Wash Windows, Water Garden Evoke Windblast = Sweep Road. Clear Dead Leaves. Fly = Recover Ball From Roof. Or arrow from a tree it's litin, or levitate down that there bird's nest full of eggs.
Phantom Sense spells are largely used only to impress your neighbors, as at a party.
Phantom Odor = create a mild perfume to mask your "housitosis" or if you ain't bathed this week.
Phantom Sight = Hide Unsightly Mess Phantom Sound = Elevator Music Phantom Taste = "Who needs MSG?" Or any spices for thatmatter -- a little Phantom Taste on the tuna fish casserole and you don't need garlic or pepper. If everyone knows their own version of this spell, they can cast it themselves. The only real risk is that a person addicted to Phantom Taste may start using it too much on his potatoes and not get sufficient vitamins or something.
Resist Damage = Ward Mosquitoes. A 1-pointer cuts the number of bite in half. Also good vs. poisonous snakes .
Sense [substance] is obvious, I hope. Sense Dirty Child can be handy if Herbie doesn't like taking baths.
Shapechange is a good, if rare spell. Shapechange Dog to [harmless animal] is probably known by all door-to-door salesmen, tinkers, and mailmen.
Stupefaction = Insomnia Antidote.
Telepathy = "Martha, this party is deadly dull. Pretend you have a headache so I can take you home." without alerting your hosts.
Venom = the Kill Rats of the sorcery set.
Nick:
"Magian" is a barbarism that should be expunged at once. Use Magi or face my wrath.
I sez:
> I believe that the Sedalpists came from the north, following the
>storm invasion, which followed the troll invasion. It's possible
>that they were refugees from the Vadeli. Or they could have simply
>been an old phoenician-like colony that stuck around after the
>Vadeli disaster.
Joerg B. spawns a host of questions.
>Does that mean you are Gregging (Sandying?) the Fonrit article in
>Heroes?
I hope not. The Sedalpists are pretty much NOT in Fonrit.
>Did the Sedalpists originate among non-Wareran humans?
No.
>Or do you suggest that there were non-Wareran Old Malkioni (quite
>unlikely IMO, since most if not all Godtime Malkioni claimed kinship
>to the prophet)?
No. I'm claiming they are Wareran humans, though nowadays there's probably plenty of Agimori or mixed breed Sedalpists.
>Where in Fonrit were they settled?
They didn't settle in Fonrit. They settled in Umathela. Any Sedalpists in Fonrit are later immigrants.
>Or do you mean the 3rd Age Vadeli disaster at Oenriko Rocks?
Nope. I mean the enormous sinking of their lands, with the extermination of 99 44/100ths of all the Vadeli in the world. .
Joerg then ludicrously takes on my defense of Sorcery by pointing out how much better divine magic is. Get real, Joerg. They all have advantages.
>I have to cast spells with 12-18 magic points in them to effect the
>same as one point of divine spell." Compare Command <species> to
>Dominate <species>.
Hmm. When did you try to Dominate a creature with a POW of 24-36, Joerg? Dominating your typical human is 5-9 MPs, tops. Command <species> is a 2-point spell anyway (I think?). So, Joerg. how many MPs is worth a point of POW? Hmm? Completely ignoring the fact that the priest gets to cast one (1) Command species every day (or 2 days, if it's a 2-pointer as my brain seems to remember), while the sorcerer can cast his spells until his MPs give out.
Alex whines about my (and Nils) Kralorela stuff.
Sandy:
>>I picture the Kralori as being smug as all get-out.
Alex
>why does this require that most of them get to Vithela on their
>first try?
'Cause I like it better that way, Alex. It's purely a matter of taste, and mine runs against Kralori reincarnation.
Sandy
>There's a Sky culture under the draconic stuff in Kralorela.
Alex
>I know they're one of the Speckled areas in GoG, and I've heard
>assorted theories about the relationship between Kralorela and other
>Solar areas, but it doesn't amount to much, to date. My personal
>suspicion is that there's not different "layers" of distinct
>cultures, a la Peloria, but that sun worship just happens to figure
>as an aspect of Kralori mysticism.
Suspect all you like. My own opinion is that the speckled areas are places that all look back to the days when Yelm Ruled All with fondness and reminiscence, and that nowadays, such regions tend to manifest their histories in various ways not necessitating actual worship of the Sun God himself.
Alex
>I don't think there is a different Solar heaven, rather I think the
>reincarnation schtick is how solar beliefs are manifest in the
>current setup.
Think as you please. I must disagree, given the afterlife I've got sketched out for my Kralori.
>A strong cyclical element also fits in with the draconic theme,
Eh? How are Gloranthan dragons cyclic in the least? They're a fine example of Eternal Progression, seems to me.
>The Sandy/Nils scheme seems only tokenly cyclical to me, and not all
>that different from Bog Standard Theistic Stuff.
(A) We aren't trying to be cyclic.
(B) Eat me. The Bog Standard Theists are recyclers, not we.
Sorcerous Stat Restoration
David Cake reminds me:
>If nobody likes it as a sorcery ritual, perhaps a Saint ability?
Oh yeah. Xemela is able to restore lost Stats. I quote:
XEMELA'S BLESSING (9 POW): The invocation has two parts. In the first part, the supplicant's skin turns night-black, and he or she has one minute to touch other beings. When he or she has touched every being that he or she wishes to affect, or the minute is up, the the second half of the invocation takes place. At this moment, all the beings touched have all their damage cured.
For every hit location cured of damage, the supplicant takes 1 point of damage in the corresponding location. For every person cured of all general hit point damage, the supplicant takes 1 point of general hit point damage. For every disease cured, the supplicant loses 1 point off the appropriate stat (i.e., curing Brain Fever costs 1 INT). Other losses can generally be figured out by comparing to this general effect. Thus, a person Tapped can be cured by losing 1 point of the appropriate stat. Only points lost below the character's normal trait level can be restored -- if you started with a POW of 10, and had it worked up to 15, and had it tapped down to 8, Xemela's Blessing would only restore you back to 10.
If a hit location is completely destroyed, this blessing has no effect on it -- the Restore Limb spell must be used instead. This blessing cannot help someone who is dead, nor can it remove the taint of chaos from an individual. This blessing will not expel a passion spirit or disease spirit, but it will heal all damage done by such a spirit to date.
If the total damage taken by the supplicant is enough to kill him or her, the complete effect still works. Hence, one common ploy is to "use up" Xemela supplicants during a battle, by having them each touch a hundred or more wounded individuals before invoking the second half of an invocaùtion. The supplicant takes hundreds of points of damage, dying instantly in a tatter of bloody shreds, but many soldiers are cured and ready to return to battle.
Of course, Xemela's blessing is rather self-destructive, but I like that, as it makes it different from theism, etc.. I picture orders of sacred Xemelesque nuns waiting the order to go forth to a disease-stricken village and cure everyone within of their diseases and stat losses. Or all the Brain Fever afflicted wizards of the whole kingdom are asked to gather together in the capitol once a year, and a "sacrificial" virgin heals them at once, in return for her family being made wealthy, or noble, or something.
My image of the Malkioni (which started out as pretty Islamic, but has been swayed towards Christianity by Nick -- hey, Nick, how about putting more Islamic stuff within -- they had plenty of interesting nitpicky sects, too, y'know), is that they are superior to the theists not man-for-man or wizard-for-priest, but en masse. An individual barbarian warrior, all tanked up with Shield, Woad, and Truesword is bad news. To face him, the West can only present a dozen Knights, each with a Damage Boost, Spell Resistance, and Haste. "A sword costs as much as a hundred spears. But a hundred spears can overcome one sword."
Even more to the point: "One Gaul can easily overpower one Roman, but 100 Romans has little to fear from 100 Gauls, and 1000 Romans is victor over 1000 Gauls in every battle."
I admit this implies that maybe it's better for most adventurers to be barbarians, rather than Westerners.
End of Glorantha Digest V1 #233
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