I doubt the East Isles or Pamaltela had many heroes within Time, let alone superheroes.
Yeah. Maybe more an exotic or a magical leader im my classment above. Add Manimat and possibly other Dara Happan emperors, plus some of their opponents.
> How about Jannisor? Heort? The Only Old One? Where's the line between hero
> and really-successful non-hero?
Jaldon is a prime example of a hero who died, but may be summoned at the right place. IMO the Kethaelan Silver Age Heroes could be treated similarly, as well as EWF-Age heroes (Ingolf, Alakoring) or Malkioni Saints (Gerlant, Talor, Paslac, Arkat in one of his aspects). Heroes come in two varieties: Living in flesh and blood, and summonable from the past (actually the Gods- or Hero-Plane, where they await their summons). I suppose in Dorastor one could raise all kinds of dead or dismembered heroes, even more than spirits in Prax...
> Graeme
>>Superheroes of Glorantha or Genertela? May Errinoru have been an >>aldryami superhero? > He might. Have we evidence that he was more than "just" a
IMO yes. He underwent the same trials as Ethilrist or the late Argrath and Sheng. And yes, the Red Emperor who died by the disease sent by Sheng as well. All of these went into Hell, and brought back some power which might give them an infinite MgF in DP terms. This might manifest as a separate power, like Ethilrist's Hound and Cloak, or like the Grisly Portions of Tada in NG, but put together (as hinted at in the "previews" on Masters of Luck and Death and Shadows Dance in old Wyrms Footnotes) they might compose as a superhero. In Errinoru's case, I'd include his ship and some exotic plant abilities.
>>My problem with this is "How do you define a hero"? > No argument here. For what it's worth, not all the DP heroes
With Keener Than _not_ classed as a hero (but a heroquester).
> 1) A hero is a mortal who has had his star appear in the sky.
This is closer to superhero, IMO. Consider: Sheng, Arkat, Errinoru
> 2) A superhero is a mortal who achieves the Infinity Rune,
> total control of all the mana flux in and around him.
I agree to this one, and made it my main criterion.
> By these definitions, many of the beings in DP (for instance)
> do not qualify as heroes -- like the Inhuman King, or Androgeus.
I disagree. The Inhuman King is yet another candidate for superhero-like abilities, but he is a dragon in other guise. One could optionally class him as a true dragon, which means much the same. Androgeus is a mystery, as intended.
> A heroquester is one who has successfully entered the GodTime and brought back
> some benefit or change for himself or his people. He has worked a Will-backed
> change but it is one that has been made before. He is following a path trod by
> an earlier Hero, the knowledge of which is maintained in the Mundane World by
> the Hero's cult.
I classed these as magical leaders, leaders (these may include others), or exotic individuals.
> A Hero is one who has gone into the GodTime and done something new. He has trod
> a path no-one else ever has before and found some unique power for himself and
> his people. He has become by the act of weaving his Will into the web of the
> world, part of the eternal pattern of Glorantha. This means he exists partly in
> the GodTime. It also means that his quest must be reaffirmed each Sacred Time
> by his Cult. To change metaphors, his cult must dance the steps that he took in
> the GodTime as part of the great Dance of the World to keep it real in the
> Mundane World. Not all Heros are military powers but all are part of the reality
> of Glorantha. But the ones we hear about on the military/political scene will
> tend to be militarily significant.
Doesn't work out for Red Emperor and Feathered Horse Queens 2-8. These work with some Avatar scheme instead, as does Jar-eel (and likely the other inspirations of Moonson to some extent as well).
> A SuperHero has done all that a Hero has done and something more. I would say
> he has somehow touched the Infinity Rune, a thing that is naturally only given
> to Dragons and the highest of the Gods. There is a qualitative as well as a
> quantitative difference. How Harrek managed it I don't know...
The Polar Bear. I'm most curious how Yanafal did so, and then Arkat. Being rescued by Harmast doesn't seem sufficient...
At least a leader. In DP terms likely similar to Pavis.
> Graeme Lindsell:
>> My problem with this is "How do you define a hero"?
> The basic definition is Greg's unification of the Microcosm, Mesocosm
> and Macrocosm (hereth endth the Godlearner grab). In Glorantha this
> is recognised by 'Meeting with the Gods' and gaining a personal star
> (Theist PoV anyway). Note this is not achieved by Argrath until he
> undertakes the Lightbringers Quest which is sometime _after_ the wars
> of Dragon Pass.
Same for Sheng, and reverse for the Red Emperor (he has his star, the Red Moon). Which is why I class these as quasi-superheroes. IMO the star is the class thing for superheroes, but optional, unless stars in Hell (Ethilrist) or on the far horizon (Harrek's Palace of the Polar Bear) count.
> IMO in DP, Argrath is not a hero but is of Heroic
> stature. He becomes one much later.
I disagree. Argrath before the Cradle and Circumnavigation is a heroquester of roughly the same importance as Kallyr Starbrow (a non-hero who has got her own private star...). As soon as he becomes the Prince of Sartar, he is a hero of the same level as Jaldon (one of the guys I marked as RIP) or the Feathered Horse Queen.
> This gives a more restrictive
> list of heros. I don't think that if you give a cult spell like Gerak
> Kag and 'Jumping' for Kyger Litor, you are automatically a hero by
> the God Learner definition. Cult hero (big C small h) is a more accurate
> definition, IMO.
Gerak Kag and Jaldon are heroes for their capture of the city of Pavis by use of heroic abilities, not for their spells. Garundyer has accumulated so many exotic abilities that I'd class him as close to superhero as well, and definitely as above average heroes. Likewise Cragspider, Ironhoof, and the Red Emperor.
> The basic level of hero seems to be slightly higher than Argrath but
> lower than Harrek like the Inhuman King.
Disagree again. There are upper class heroes, like the ones I mentioned, and then there are "ordinary" heroes, like Gunda, Beatpot, the Twins, the Dwarf.
> It's interesting to note that
> virtually no heroes are found among the West who are into Saints and I
> don't think the correspondance is one-on-one.
Neither do I in general, but I still vote for Gerlant, Talor and Paslac, and might for Hrestol, although he might manifest in a different way.
> Dara Happa is stated not to have practiced heroquesting. Despite this I
> think they were quite capable of producing people of Heroic Statue quite
> easily.
Peloria IMO has its own load of ancient heroes. Like Avivath, Manimat (a typical Darkness survival hero, like King Heort), or Daxdarius. The Dara Happan emperor accompanying Gonn Orta might be included, as well as Palangio the Iron Vrok, and possibly other characters from the Broken Council as well.
> What they do is that by their Priestly Magic, they incarnate
> various gods into selected state officials (such as Anitirius is
> incarnated into the Emperor). The lunars continue this practice to some
> degree and also experiment with Heroquesting.
This incarnating of heroes might be common elsewhere, e.g. among the trolls. Geras Shag might summon Gerak Kag by incarnating him, for instance.
> On the subject of Lunar Heros, one of the foes Argrath meets with are the
> Seven Granddaughters of the Red Moon. I can recall only five (Jar-eel,
> Hon-eel, Hwarin Dalthippa, Yara Aranis, Inadana Daughtersdotter) and one
> (Yara) is more like a monster than a hero. Anybody know the names of the
> other two?
The Fortunate Succession has a number of children of the Red Emperor (well, DHBE has). Pick your choice.
> Non-definitive list of Definite Heros (as opposed to those of Heroic Statue)
> and some Also Rans out of the People of Heroic Statue
I disagree with your high criteria for full heroes as defined in DP:
> Aelwrin Beatpot: Not a hero. Butchering an entire Lunar Great Temple
> with a Potato Peeler does not a Hero make.
Being Best Friend seems to. Standing off Jar-eel should qualify, too, like Brian should after destroying the Bat.
> Argrath: Lightbringer.
Already earlier.
> Arkat: Achieved Hero status five times over.
Appears five times. <g>
> Garangordos the Cruel: Not a Hero (even though I said that he was a
> candidate for fitting Sandy's inferred definition of a superhero). It
> seems he was assasinated before he could become a Hero.
Agree somewhat. Might, might not.
> Gunda the Guilty: Not a hero.
Best Friend, again. A run-of-the-mill hero with few extra powers.
> Inhuman King: Not a hero. He doesn't see the need to become one, as he's
> already a dragon incarnated in a lesser form to perpetuate the species.
A hero by choice when he could be a full dragon.
> Harrek: I'm thinking he made his heroic quest by sailing down Magasta's
> Pool after he completed the circumnavigation. There is a gap of three
> years in his chronology.
Did Harrek complete the circumnavigation, or did he stay in Laskal? He jumped hero-state when he skinned the White Bear, and became superhero at once.
> Hon-eel: Met with Yelm and bore the two twins Twilight and Noonlight.
Even earlier, when she rescued and wed the elf deity.
> Ironhoof: Hero. His quest for the Lady of the Wild.
And others. IMO his quest for divine descent.
> Jar-Eel: Hero.
Super!
> Red Emperor: I think the Emperors of Dara Happa and the Lunar Emperors
> achieve their heroic stature by the fact that they incarnate Antirius as
> one of their titles is the Bearer of Antirius. Takenegi was the strongest
> seen for a while because he could fuse the Egi with his Antirius portion,
> but now the Egi are dead so....
One good reason, could work for the Feathered Horse Queens as well. I vote for one near-superhero - the one who countered Sheng.
> Sheng Seleris: Becomes a hero quite late in his Dance Across Peloria.
> Is somehow tricked by the Carmanians.
Hero quite soon, near to full superhero after raiding the moon.
> Twins of Tarsh: Had their chance and blew it.
Heroes. Weak run of the mill, since they gave their earthquake powers back to the cult.
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