> Very likely. Jakaleel is mentioned as a ZZ priestess, and ZZ is
>associated with Arkat - perhaps she started in ZZ, was then allowed to join
>the Arkat cult, and eventually penetrated to its inner ranks and was
>illuminated.
Doubtful IMO. Arkat is a Ralian Cult (or should that be plural?) first and foremost. The Trolls only revere Arkat outside of this area because he gives them sorcery. They do not revere him for the Illumination he possessed and I doubt if Illumination is needed for them to maintain the link with Sorcery. Therefore, IMO, Arkat is linked only with Zorak Zoran in Ralios. The Bog Standard Writeup in Trolls Gods of Zorak Zoran makes no mention of Arkat.
It is my opinion that the cult of Arkat the Troll (or Zorakarkat) worshipped in Ralios would be virtually identical to Zorak Zoran, save that its initiates belive they worship Arkat instead who ripped the Fire Powers which he holds from Evil Gbaji. The Cult of Zorak Zoran in the Jord Mountains (whom Jakaleel belongs to) is, IMO, known as Deshkorgos (or Derdromus) and is a Spolite Cult. This carries a whole new set of indigenous spiritual relationships. I don't know enough about Pelandan mythology (to be detailed somewhat in the Lunar Book) to say what the cult will be like. But it is dangerous to extrapolate what is true for trolls, elsewhere.
>Probably after the Red Goddess manifested chaotic powers she
>was extremely unpopular with the hierarchies of both, and had to abandon
>them in favour of Subere, and perhaps closer relations with the Annilla
>cult.
Cult Hierachies of both? In a war against the Carmanians? There is no seperation of 'Church and State' at this level. The Cult members on your side are stout Defenders of the Faith. Those on the other side are vile decievers who worship a false mockery of the True God(dess). And Subere is *not* against chaotic powers. What do you think a large proportion of her cult spirits are? ghouls? Helions? Wraiths? Disease Spirits? All of which are summonable by Priestess of Subere. Yet the craven Orlanthi do not seek to write out the Subere cause they are scum sucking chaos slime.
>>> I think Yanafals and Irripi knew that they would end up breaking
>>>cult vows in the course of the ritual before they started, and so were
>>>probably illuminated.
>>One can be cynical and cunning exploiters of Cult hierachies and magics
>>without being Illuminated.
> Yes, by exploiting the outward forms of rituals and worship for your
>own ends etc. without really having religious reasons in mind. But what I
>think YT and IO planned to do was actually to break their own most sacred
>cult vows (YT by being resurrected, IO by using illusion (anti-truth)
>powers, at least), which is serious sacrilege.
In which you have stepped away from the initial theory that they deliberately _failed_ the rituals into one of deliberately _perverting_ the rituals. As I have said before, I don't believe Yanafal faced Humakt until after the Birth of the Red Goddess. And I don't think that Irrippi Ontor used Glamours until afterwards. This is because of my belief that the act of participating in the Ritual _transfigured_ their mindset and their attitudes. Thus they may have been orthodox before, ie 'Let us make a New Goddess to be our Wyter against the Damnable Carmanians, oops sorry YT and IO'. But afterwards, their worldview about what was good and what was bad had become completely changed. The image of Irripi Ontor manifesting the power of the White Lie at the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light to confound the Dark Truths of the Carmanians would have been utterly repugnant to the Irripi Ontor before the Birth of the Red Goddess, IMHO.
Furthermore a nitpick, if the ritual being used was that of the Lightbringers Quest, then Yanafal would have been acting the part of Humakt on the Quest. Now as I recall the rite was the living going down to the land of the death and bringing the Dead back to life, not getting killed in the process. So I fail to see how Yanafal can break his 'most sacred cult vow' that by being ressurected in this quest. I think that he would have instead substituted the Red Goddess for Grandfather Mortal in when reliving the Act of First Murderer (an easy quest) and pulled the fight so that the Red Goddess lived. The synergistic effects of the others failing their quests in a similar matter allows the Red Goddess to return from her long years in limbo and remanifest in this world.
Mark Smylie:
>>But I
>>can't really get a handle on what the Ralian Trolls permit the
>>practice of Illumination for. Sense Illuminates? The Bright Empire
>>is been dead for 2000 years. Ignore Cult restrictions? Like what?
>>Join Zorak Zoran and you'll have virtually no burdensome cult taboos
>>that I know of. Join Arkat Kingtroll and you can learn sorcery as
>>well. All this without the aid of illumination.
>While it's true that at that point the Bright Empire was dead and Gbaji
>chopped up into little pieces (unless, of course, you believe that Arkat was
>or became Gbaji at some point), I don't think that would diminish the need to
>have a few of the Benighted around to sense those that might have escaped the
>Arkati's dragnets, particularly if you happen to be paranoid and given to
>conspiracy theories (a seemingly popular Ralian pasttime).
For humans, this is true and undoubtedly one of the major reasons it exists. But I was talking about Ralian Trolls specifically. Subtely isn't one of their hallmarks. Acting Nephilim like in Secret Societies with Aeons of Patience does not sound right to me. The Trolls hide in the Shadows because it's their element and they strike when they percieve the enemy is weak. None of this 'The Stars Are Right' Gobbledigook.
>Illumination in its most organized forms strikes
>me as a form of mysticism, or as a potentially dangerous mystery cult that
>lets you in on some of the great mysteries of the universe, in which case
>you're joining for what you can learn, not for the neat side effects. As
>such, I think there would always be some, even amongst the chaos-hating
>trolls, that would actively seek to maintain a place for it in their culture,
>even if only in secrecy.
I'm sure there is some reason for the Trolls of Ralios to maintain a cult of Arkat the Illuminate, but I'm still searching for one that meshs in with their psychology adeptly detailed by Sandy. 'Ur, They are D'wargon Wombbiters, but they're OUR wombbiters!' is the best I can get and it doesn't quite cut it.
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