Robert McArthur
>Bum. So the old CoP was wrong. I distinctly remember it (or was
if >the Genertela pack?) saying that chaotic beings could *never*
use >truestone.
Let me clarify. When I wrote the sentence above, I stupidly was only thinking of holding truestone in one's hand, using it as a thrown missile, etc. If you can credit such complete idiocy on my part, I completely forgot about truestone's major use -- holding knowledge and spells (and so forth). But (in my campaign and in my opinion) Truestone _cannot_ be used for that purpose by a chaos entity. But a broo could use a Truestone as a sling pellet?
I would play that an illuminated being _can_ use truestone to store spells, but not chaotic spells, or spells from a chaotic deity.
For instance, none of Thed's Rune spells could be stored in a Truestone. Because the Seven Mothers are illuminated, certain of their spells could be stored -- such as Shield, Mindblast, etc. But you could not store their chaos feature spell in Truestone, even if you were illuminated, because that spell is obviously chaotic.
Note that Truestone is an exceedingly painful object to chaotic beings -- it sets up the universal impulse to discharge one's Rune magic into it, but then a chaos being's magic _cannot_ be so received, so the frustration must be incredible. I suspect most magic chaos beings hate the stuff because of the psychic pain it causes.
Eric G.. Scharf
>How does worship of Xiola Umbar figure in this perspective? By
this >reasoning, I find it difficult to understand why a
non-trollkin >would ever join Xiola Umbar. I once played a trollkin
XU initiate >(a midwife), and the players of other Uz found it
difficult to >reconcile the supposed reverence for the protection of
XU's charges >with the more traditional Uz behavior you describe.
In fact, this >dissonance led us to re-intepret XU as a sort of
"Liberation >Theology" for trollkin. Did we wrongly project human
values onto an >Uz power struggle? Does the fact that the Trollkin
Curse occurred >after the Compromise increase or decrease its impact
on Uz >psychological evolution?
Why would a non-trollkin join Xiola Umbar? Here's four good reasons. I suspect most Xiola Umbar trolls have one or more of these reasons somewhere in the back of their mind, even if not consciously formed.
Mmohrfield
>The Aldryami believe that the only "sane" humans are the Hsunchen.
I like your argument along this line, but I suspect that only certain Hsunchen get to be considered as sane.
The rather illuminating debate betwixt myself and David Cake continues
>I think that trolls have a definate moral sense - it is just an
>extremely alien one to ours. Chaos, for example, is immoral to a
>troll - even if you could escape retribution, becoming chaotic
would >still be very wrong.
Actually, as has been pointed out frequently, trolls have a pretty lackadaisical attitude towards chaos. The Blue Moon trolls and Yolp trolls seem to work pretty well inside the Lunar empire, trolls tame and herd chaotic cave trolls, etc. Rather than being morally anti-chaos, I believe that trolls simply recognize that chaos is dangerous to self and family, and that it should not be allowed close at home. It's no more of a "moral" viewpoint than when a friend of mine, last Wednesday, called over a neighbor to help kill a water moccasin in her backyard. She didn't impugn the water moccasin as an "immoral" force. But she sure didn't want it in her backyard, where it could bite her kids.
This is quite different from the human viewpoint, in which chaos is seen more the way that the John Birch Society views communists.
>Doing something that seriously hurts your clan is wrong - I think
>some trolls would sacrifice themselves to aid their clan.
Well, duh. ;) An troll is perfectly able to love another being. This has nothing to do with morality. It's not "moral" to love your family and friends (though it is clearly and unnatural _not_ to do so -- a human who kills family members is not so much regarded as immoral as insane, monstrous, _inhuman_). Morality comes in when you're supposed to respect the rights of non-family and non-friends.
>And the troll cults promulgate their own moral code - even the
Zorak >Zorani (a ZZer will risk his life to kill something chaotic
for no >other reason than that it is chaotic - it may not seem like
much of >a moral code to us, but it is pretty important to them, and
justifys >the ZZers to the more society minded KLers)
Just as with the human cults, the troll cults don't propagate their own moral code in any way. All they do is reflect their society's code. In my opinion, the anti-chaos aspects of ZZ have been greatly over-exaggerated in certain circles.
Sure, ZZ is hell on wheels vs. Chaos. As god of Hate and Darkness, he's pretty damn efficient against _anyone_. And the KL don't keep him around because he's good vs. chaos, they keep him around because (a) they have no choice and (b) they're good against humans, elves, and dwarfs, too.
>Even that crazed ZZ Death Lord has a moral sense. Why else would
he >risk his life frequently in order to vilely murder and mutilate
what >he morally diapproves of?
Life is pretty cheap to a ZZer. He doesn't go out and kill chaos because he's a courageous defender of society, he kills chaos (and other stuff) because he likes to kill, to fight, to exult in bloodshed and fiery destruction. He fights chaos for three reasons, and three reasons only.
>I think trolls are weird enough already, thanks, without
postulating >major aberrancies in psychology that we can never
really hope to >play properly.
Sez who? I propose that playing a Being of the Id is actually simpler than trying to be a person just like us, but from another culture.
>1) do trolls have any altruistic sense at all?
Yes, but only to people that they know and like. Trolls
aren't solipsistic -- they have the same emotions as humans, just
processed differently. A human walking down the street will step
aside so that another person can have the right of way. A troll will
only do so if the other person is a respected friend of his, or
looks tougher than him. Trolls love their children as ferociously as
any mother bear. Doesn't mean you can rely on them to donate to
UNICEF.
NOTE: I do NOT think that _uzuz_ have any sense of love,
loyalty, or altruism, though they do rely on such emotions to
maintain their position. I view them as cold as stones. If it would
make them safe forever, I think the uzuz in the Castle of Lead would
happily send every other troll in the world (hell, every other
sentient) to eternal flaming oblivion.
>2) are trolls different psychologically from humans to such an
>extent that they cannot think the same way?
Some humans have managed to function in troll society, and vice-versa. There exist cults dedicated to troll-human intercourse (social, not sexual). There's even the Kitori tribe. Obviously trolls can communicate with humans and predict human reactions and behavior.
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